Blizzard, I implore you: retune BWL, ZG, AQ40 and Naxx40 while you still have the time to do it

Even if the content was run in the “appropriate” patch, things would still be dramatically easier than you remember. Especially for AQ40 and Naxx, since the patch changes from 1.10 to 1.12 have been much less intense than what you seem to be assuming. I started playing in 1.10 back then, and the state of classes and loot was pretty much the same as we’re seeing today. Only our knowledge is improved, and they shouldn’t retune the game just because people know strategies better. What about people who don’t, for once? The game doesn’t revolve around veterans only (even if I am one such myself).

If you want a harder raiding experience, you don’t even need Blizzard to tune anything.

Don’t use flasks (or heck, any consumables - I hardly used any myself back then besides health/mana potions). Bring less than 40 people (again, I remember running MC with 26 people back in 1.10 - and many of us were semi-noobs in dungeon tiers rather than actual BiS). There are so many ways you can challenge yourself that asking Blizzard to do the tuning for you just to penalize the less experienced/hardcore just sounds whiney to me.

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Your argument here is dismissing the actual point of the discussion. You’re projecting an opinion on to my post and jumping to assumptions and conclusions about my intentions/desires when it’s simply pointing out the facts. The bosses are easier than they were in Vanilla.

It doesn’t matter that Vanilla was easy, it doesn’t matter that people are better players, it doesn’t matter that TBC was harder, it doesn’t matter that if it was correctly tuned it would still be easy, people are using these arguments to distract from the truth of the topic.

What matters is that Classic is the most accurate representation they can create within reasonable expectation on 1.12, what we currently have is a vastly easier than Vanilla experience, and it’s something that could be easily rectified. Stop turning conversations where people are asking Blizzard to correct it (Classic boss tuning) and assume people are asking for Mythic Archimonde Classic style, literally nobody is asking for or implying that. They just want bosses adjusted to 1.12.

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How do you adjust them to 1.12 though? It’s not like there’s been a clear nerf that can be easily reverted (like the -30% HP to TBC bosses in 3.0.2). Classes weren’t just changed to do more dps. They got more options across the spectrum. They got more mana regen, more rage, more abilities. You can’t just assign a flat number to those.

Bottom line is - any change in difficulty to bosses would be arbitrary. And even then, only MC and BWL could possibly use some tuning, the game rly didn’t change enough from 1.10 to warrant any significant tuning to AQ40, let alone Naxx.

u can clear naxx with dungeon bis gear and if i want challenging raids i go retail fml

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You increase boss damage and health to account for vastly increased dps, tanking and healing ability on average that existed by 1.12, that would on average fix most of the problems quite easily. Especially given that they are releasing this in phases they have plenty of time to tweak things to give the original difficulty.

And come on don’t give me that nothing changed after 1.10, most Warrior tanks didn’t even spec Prot until. 1.11 (June 2006) when Shield Slam got re-designed and buffed and Shamans got an overhaul in 1.11 too and Druids got baseline Innervate, then there were a whole slew of big changes to in 1.12 so there were a lot of changes after 1.10 that are relevant to the game balance. If Warrior tanks switching from Fury to Protection is not significant to you then I don’t know what is.

And how much would you increase them, exactly? What kind of raid composition would you assume? What level of gear or consumables? The difference in power level of a Vanilla raid between optimal and sub-optimal composition is bigger than in any future expansion. A raid tuned to be an acceptable challenge for hardcore players would be nearly unapprochable for casuals and ppl as knowledgeable about Vanilla as we were in 2006.

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That’s for Blizzard to decide, they can figure that out pretty damn easily too, they have 15 years experience balancing raids, a reference client and the original kills to work from. Private servers figured it out, I’m sure Blizzard can figure it out.

Either way we look at it the bosses are still going to be easy, the goal is that they aren’t artificially easy as MC/Ony are. It’s currently like playing at the end of an expansion and going back to try the earlier raids, roflstomping them because you do significantly more damage in your crappy gear than the correctly geared guys did back when it was current.

What did private servers figure out? They were trying to accurately recreate vanilla, and were slightly overtuned.

The game is fine. Hardcore raiding isnt a vanilla thing.

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Easy for WHO, exactly? For APES?

I still haven’t ventured into MC myself so I can’t tell, but I’ll wait to do so before coming to any conclusion. So far, all the dungeons I did felt legitimately challenging, despite people’s cryout about them being a joke because some lvl 30 streamers cleared SM or something. Unlike them, I didn’t run with twinked chars, I didn’t always use voice chat or a perfect group composition with Engineering and full consumables. And I prolly won’t have a perfect raid for my MC runs either. Yes, basic consumables (read: no flasks except tanks) and voice chat ofc, but many ppl will be still new to MC tactics and won’t have Engineering or other min-maxed stuff. And we prolly won’t be 40 either for the first times. If the raid still feels criminally easy with this setup, I may be inclined to agree with you.

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100 % agree with OP… Game is to easy cuz of all the 1.12/1.3 nerfs to dungeons/raids and buffs to players, and well also cuz of layer jumps. Ppl have stacks of money already, able to buy whatever pots/flasks they need for the easy content.

I haven’t ventured into MC either, my character is level 40… However I’m in a guild with friends from my retail raiding guild. My guild cleared MC and Onyxia on the first night they entered, the only comments were how surprised they were at how quickly the bosses died (as in not wipes, but how low the boss health was relative to the dps output of the raid).

All people are asking for when asking Blizzard to tune the bosses is to offset the massive increase in power we have. That is

  1. More healing and regeneration
  2. Tanks have stronger mitigation/avoidance/threat
  3. Dps specs are stronger across the board, due to buffs/redesigns.
  4. Itemisation on items is stronger across the board, due to buffs/redesigns.
  5. Boss debuff slots doubled from 8 to 16, also allowing more dps.

I’m just scratching the surface too, the deeper you look into it the more you see that what we’re playing is vastly easier than the original Vanilla experience, which is why we’re not getting the original Vanilla experience, because everything is tuned to be roflstomped in relation to the 1.12 game… Aside from Naxx.

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The only good arguments are itemisation and debuff slots. Which cant be changed until our next reset.

Edit: Well not reset, since our characters will still exist. Next phase 1 servers

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And you think the content back then was tuned for the level of knowledge and commitment (in terms of learning tactics, consumable usage, knowing BiS gear etc) of a retail raiding guild?

We’re going around in circles, stop trying to justify the fact that the bosses are easier by saying players are better. If the players had no knowledge of anything in the game, if we took 40 people off the street who never played WoW and had no access to theorycrafting, the bosses are still easier than Vanilla by a considerable margin because of 1.12

Stop it, stop using “players are better” and “we have knowledge”… It perverts the discussion, objectively the raids are easier now regardless of knowledge, Blizzard can easily fix that and it would make the game better and more authentic, why argue against this?

What is your argument against bringing in original difficulty?

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That there’s no objective way of calculating what said “original difficulty” is. And that, even if they did, people like you would still roflstomp it and complain of how easy it is - because the content was never supposed to be tuned around people gearing, stacking up their raid or speccing as flawlessly as they do today

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@Swamper I’m soooooo hoping for new phase 1 realms !!! With no layer jumping or anything.

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Yeah by the next time they should be alot better at launching servers. I think they will decide to do 8 debuff slots until ZG releases and they might also do progressive itemisation aswell. Im certain the “too complicated to understand” was really just them themselves struggling to understand it and projecting that as something players wouldnt enjoy.

Edit: I wouldnt wait for it. It will definitely be after phase 6

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Look people have been roflstomping the content on Private Servers for years and nobody complained, nobody is asking for Mythic. The private servers look at various output figures at an expected average gear level and they adjust accordingly to get it in the ballpark to arrive at dps requirements, tank damage, healing requirements and drop that in line with old kill videos and screenshots etc.

But since Blizzard has the reference clients there is absolutely an objective way of matching up the numbers pretty closely, they have a big leg up on private servers in that depertment, and the private servers already did a better job of it than Blizzard who decided to just throw it out the door untouched.

We have some of the people who argued “no changes” because they wanted an authentic experience simultaneously fighting against people who are asking for a more authentic experience, that Blizzard is fully capable of providing.

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Just because pservers adjusted numbers in some way doesn’t mean that they did so uncontroversially. No matter the method you choose, it will inevitably end up catering to a more or less hardcore segment of the playbase, depending on the assumed raid composition and gear level.

How does having a functional 1.12 client help Blizzard decide how much, if any, they should buff up bosses to bring back the “authentic experience”? I mean, the authentic experience often involved raids of 5 people of every class in full dungeon set gear and no consumes besides mana/health pots. Do you really think bosses tuned for such a raid wouldn’t be roflstomped by any competent raid nowadays? Or that the aforementioned “sub-optimal” raid wouldn’t still find something like MC or Onyxia legitimately challenging if they also had to learn the encounters?

That’s because the “authentic experience” is something that will inevitably vary for each player. The only objective thing Blizz can do is bring back the game as it was in the only patch they have a functioning client for.