Blizzard, pls move Horde starting cave to the south, so the Alliance has a chance to win

Hey guys. First of all, I know this topic has been brought out many times before, but I think we should speak, ask and cry about it, until Blizzard actually does something with it.

So what am I talking about? I am talking about this:

Alliance is currently losing probably 8 or 9 out of 10 AV battles. And for half of those defeats, the biggest reason is the horde starting cave, which gives them huge and unfair starting advantage. In the other 4 Ally defeats, the Horde simply has a better team, and that is totally fine, let a better team win.

What makes me angry is how Blizzard tweaked AV so the Alliance can’t make premades, because that gives them unfair advantage. Ok, fine.

Meanwhile, the Horde using broken starting point to win 80-90% of the games - everything is fine and balance, no unfair advantage there.

So I have a question for Blizzard: Is your intention for the horde to win 90% of the games? If yes, than don’t do anything.

If not, than pls fix this. It won’t resolve every problem, but it would be better in comparison what we have now.

And to hell with #nochanges if we are talking about broken things that totally ruins the gameplay experience for half of the people.



As horde with a 60% mount, you reach Balinda before alliance reach Galv with a 100% mount.

1 Like

From the OP (us forum):
-If they try to ambush at SH GY, they’ve basically done our work for us by putting all of them in one place for us to just keep them there until we overpower them and take SH GY.

Why do Horde overpower finally? If it is not because of the cave location, wouldn’t that mean, in any scenario, winning most or all fights will eventually result in Horde winning?
If Alliance wipe Horde at Balinda what is the advantage of Horde cave being closer? It will just take more time to move north and wipe them (Horde) again.
I think Allies has more AFKers. I see less of them fighting at any point of AV and I have never seen them wiping us near SH. Not even close.
Maybe Im missing something.

It’s quite odd that during the premade era that supposed advantage that gives the Horde ‘90% win’ rate didn’t play a role at all. And now it’s the reason why Alliance are losing?

Everything has an up and downside, the location of the Alliance start cave + stormpike + stormpike relief position make it impossible to attack dun baldr without outnumbering alliance 2/1. If you can’t force the Horde to split into two groups you’re playing a bad game by not utilizing that advantage.


You are forgetting our OP racials mate, can’t forget those in mass battles, they def tip the scale!

I’ve asked this question many times so I will do it again

  • What if everything alliance are complaining about when it comes to AV is fixed (including horde racials) and you STILL lose 90% WHAT THEN? What is going to be the excuse?

So far no alliance has managed to answer it.

Mmm, I rather have the gnome racials than anything available on the Horde side, but that’s as a caster.

1 Like

It wont, so there is nothing to answer. I am not one of those who thinks the Horde wins more in AV bcs of the racials, but I also don’t think the Horde wins more bcs it has “more pvp oriented players” or it is doing something extra smart. It all bs. Like I said, moving cave to the south would not fix everything, maybe it would not stop Horde to again win more games, but that is not the point. The point is to make the map design more even to both sides.

1 Like

I would happily trade my WoTF away for the human racial so I could see other rogues from miles away and always open first.

1 Like

Alliance in US tend to win AV more often, so probably BLizz will not care to change anything even if alliance in EU lose 100% matches av’s

This is getting ridiculous, somehow, in some way, there are some alliance players never getting over the idea that when alliance lose (and it’s not always that they lose now, not even 8-9 out of 10), it’s always the fault of something else other than the horde simply winning those BGs. It’s always the map or the racials, never anything else. (The OP did say “4 or 5” that is won due to being beaten, but the focal point is still strongly focused on the map and the premades becoming harder to form, so the subtext implies this “4 or 5” is not genuinely meant.)

When push comes to shove, horde players got a lot of people accustomed to facing premades, which required trying harder on average to squeeze as much honor as possible out of every AV. Because the only other option was to wait for a long queue timer and then lose fast and barely get anything, which isn’t really a valid option.

Meanwhile, the alliance premades created a HUGE segregation in their player community. On one hand you got the super coordinated premades, and on the other you had the leaderless players and generally just the people who never measured up to be in a premade, prone to asocial behavior.
So the “second class citizens” that was created on the alliance side, never got used to winning. To even try to win. They never got a game plan to get used to.

This is now the difference you’re still seeing the effects of.

However, the fighting strength of these “second class citizens” on the alliance side, has actually gone up now. Because they get mixed with those former premade players calling the shots. Because they see a reason to try harder now. Because they are properly incentivized now.

It is not going to be a change occurring over night. Alliance lose more than the Horde does in AV, and that’s that. But this is not a constant. It’s highly susceptible to change over time, even different waves of players trying to rank up will significantly impact these patterns, because not everyone plays equally well. It’s highly individualistic.
So as these second class citizens now gets something to get used to, they will also improve over time. The same way the horde players did, when they UNFAIRLY had to face those huge premades when they could only queue solo, all the time.

It’s nothing but a problem of your own creation.

Meanwhile, the long AV queue times for horde are still serving as a stronger motivation to win in AV than the quick queues for alliance.


Bring original AV back and problem solved

You mean the unnerfed version? Yes please.

The starting cave was there from the start though, it was moved in burning crusade to where it’s now in retail.

Oh no, they recently also added Alliance somehow having more Bots and Horde being better geared due to open world dominance as extra ‘unfairness’. They will 100% find anything at all to explain their loses except looking at their own faction players.


I suspect the layout of the graveyards on alliance side is actually quite significant. The newer layout used on retail makes them much less of a death trap than they are on classic today.

It could be worthwhile to hold a 1 week event where both factions switch sides in AV. This would show both factions what strengths of their usual side of the map they are missing and what weaknesses they encounter on the opposite side of the map.

PvP is one aspect in which #nochanges has to be considered with extra care. If the current situation is completely unbalanced it will spiral out of control and players will quit. You can’t leave severe imbalances in a PvP situation. NPCs don’t care when they get rolled in 30 minutes by a fully buffed raid group full of warriors but in PvP you have to keep real humans interested in the game for it to keep existing.

Player perception problem, the map was designed with balinda closer to sh gy than galv is to ib gy, the distance from shb to sp gy is further than ibt to fw gy, ib gy being closer to the first two towers than sh gy is to shb and iwb, and dun baldar being more fortified than frostwolf keep, and also harder to run through dun baldar than it is through frostwolf keep. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides, because they were designed as such.

For example, the horde side has a huge tree outside of Drek’s room where u can kite warmasters around as a tank to avoid taking dmg. Horde has no equivalent in dun baldar.

Alliance side can cap towers just by CC:ing one mob and killing another, while horde side have to CC one and kill 2 others to cap a bunker.

It goes on and on.

You are absolutely right that perception is a big part of it. On retail currently I see messages of alliance asking whether anyone ever wins a BG, or people instantly giving up “because we are alliance and we lose anyway”. Meanwhile I’m sitting at a win rate of 70%, I suspect a large part of this is because I always try to motivate the team and call out objectives/enemies.

Do note that the section you quoted is prefixed with a conditional: if the current situation is completely unbalanced. I don’t know for sure that it is, but there seem to be good arguments for that. I don’t think an event to switch sides will ever happen on classic, but it sure would be interesting to see the response of the players on both sides and how they adapt to the new temporary situation.

Ignoring map balance, I think the segregation of the alliance player base you mentioned also has a gigantic impact. I can’t think of any reasonable way to address that though.

There is balance in the unbalance, from a design perspective.

Basically it’s not balanced that one side can do things the other can’t, but they can do stuff the other side can’t in exchange. It becomes balanced in that way. It is not homogenized, which is a good thing. Retail is horrible because of homogenization.

It goes on and on.

But you have instant ques along with premades? If you can’t win AV as ally, youre doing something wrong kek

Since the segregation caused a larger gap in general “skill”, the only way to address it from a design perspective without completely ruining Classic, would be to introduce ways in the game to get better at playing “like the pros”. But that would create a huge new area in Classic that has never existed before by Blizzard themselves. 3rd party sources does it all the time though, it’s just that it’s not part of the gameplay for many to look up such things.

But you must first identify the kind of problem it is. It’s in essence a sociological problem. And there’s a funny thing to sociological problems, many of them gets adjusted over time by people themselves, often with little or no impetus at all, because people are able to adapt.
It just takes time. But many people complain because it hasn’t happened already, which is just that “I don’t know what I want, but I want it now, and it’s your fault for not having given it to me already, Blizzard!!”-kind of mindset.

I would trade away WoTF for Stoneform personally.
10% more armour plus immunity to poisons, bleeds and diseases? Hell yeah i’ll take that.