Asmongold stopped playing wow for good, he got too old for gaming he just love talk about gaming and its related politics stuff too much instead. Also his infinite wisdom is nothing else than your blind fanboyism.
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I play classic ERA.
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Of course itâs gone, youâve listed all the changes yourself. 2004 version hasnât existed since 2004. So âno changes!â isnât really a strong argument anymore, evidently not in the eyes of Blizzard at least - and others who love Chronoboons.
That was sarcasm. Still not seeing a good counter argument vs MoS, only âno changesâ for the sake of it.
There were changes from 2004-2006 and from 2019-2021. Why not in 2024, if the change leads to less griefing, less waiting around in one spot, and the majority of active players would love it?
Really, why not, without answering âbut Blizzard said!â or âbecause no changes!â
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Simple as that MOS is fairly designated for SoD. In classic horde got Warchief blessing to balance out horde pve design. The idea having it only one one side is also mastermind piece for different feeling for each faction.
There is no any simple need for MoS on classic. Its just wanabeesâs construct they need it for raidlog. We dont need to turn classic ERA to SOD or retail. Simple as that if you wanna its features in classic you just should go there.
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Fair enough, the faction identity is one thing. The balancing has been irrelevant for years, alliance still do get WCB.
The âneedâ for WCB to do well in raids is more about how it feels to play with and without. That is very much ingrained now, being a little weaker in raids is just not an attractive option. So we go through the hoops, and get WCB, and we hate the process. It would not become SoD or Retail with MoS. We had it and it was fantastic!
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Easy there, my guy. I feel your passion and I hear you. I understand your point. All Iâm saying is, nowhere in their satement does it say it would be like that forever. The version they are talking about is at cataclysm stages now because thatâs the authentic experience. Era is not that but meant to be a snapshot at the end. Thatâs WITH changes. Just to remind you about some of the changes. At the very launch of the game in 2019 we have sharding, increased server capacity, layers etc. and during the game weâve had changes like black lotus spawns and timers. Iâm sure you are well aware of these changes and agree they are not like vanilla was back then. Iâm simply pointing out, that even the #nochanges game you are talking about didnât exist. Just to be on the same page. Also, the main thing about the game back then was that is was ever-changing. Itâs a big problem to recreate. No contradictions here. Just want the majority to play the game more with a more active server and not raidlog for one buff while they donât have to for the rest. In a matter of changes MoS would be minuscule. I appreciate your views and your comments for a nochanges game and I too have fear about potential changes like store. Now that youâve seen them roll back some changes you want all of them rolled back, which I also think is fine, but that would have to be all changes. No pick and choosing.
Just to make sure you know, I player vanilla and have played the classic version of the game ssince its launch and went straight to era with all my chars. Donât go projecting onto others because you sound like you havenât played the game in years. Again, Azeroth was ever-changing even when we played with changes and phases. The land doesnât change because you no longer have to raidlog.
A nice question to ask yourself would be âwho promised era serversâ? The answer is noone. The classic experience was to play for 2 years and move on to TBC. Thatâs the authentic part. Era is not that and definitely was not promised.
We donât have to change to a different game to have changes. As already pointed out vanilla and classic always have had changes. It comes with the territory of an ever-evolving game. We arenât talking SoD level changes here, neither are we talking cataclysm changes. We are talking about players being able to play the game more with the implementation of MoS.
Petitions donât mean anything unless itâs from the playerbase. We donât know if these changes would be implemented if it was up to an official Blizzard poll with players actually playing the game. While I appreciate that you think I only have valid arguments, I have no intension of changing era to retail. Itâs not what Iâve talked about, neither many of the others. If that wasnât clear, it certainly is now.
So it would be fine if we called it âKennyâ and we got the buff from turning in Rend head to the statue of Turalyon behind Marcus Jonathan? Once again Rend buff was not designed to even the PvE playing fields of horde and alliance. They werenât even meant to be used in raids besides Naxx. Let that lie die out, itâs not true.
My guy, we donât NEED anything. Not even this game. What we are discussing here are wants. We wanted classic, we wanted era, we wanted Blizzard to start the smallest possible communication with the community. Something we havenât really seen. They could just poll it and ask players that have been playing era for at least 3 months what they want. Iâm sure weâll all tell them we donât want SoD or retail but the majority would like QoL changes such as MoS. So while I value your opinion and accept that you want nochanges, whatever that means to you, I also would like to have a say in how I think it should be, just like you.
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So if anything we can ageee is, that the best low impacting change would be to fix bug tgat allows Alliance get rend and do not release MoS on classic era because it is causing furter dispairity and imbalance towards horde pve design.
Once again you want MOS so badly uou should go play that version game that has valid reason to have it.
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Best solution is that both factions have it. Second is to have it as is. Third is no faction has it. Fourth would be only horde has it and having the buff invalidates logs. Those last 2 are bad because it would split logs into 2. That means they either have to clear all logs with Rend (horde and alliance) and pretty much start anew or seperate them into 2 versions of the game which doesnât feel right either. Getting rid of the buff would mean less competition because all former logs would be invalid. So yeah, best to have both faction have the buff and LONG down the list, number 2, have it as is, and all the way at the bottom 3. and 4. sugestion.
There is plenty of valid reasons for alliance to have Rend equivalent buff. Main reason is getting rid of raidlogging like they did with Chronoboon.
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Once again. Era is called classic era. Entire classic was recreated because Nostalrius huge sicces in gathering classic fan player. Classic was as close recreation of Vanilla as Blizzard could do by themself(yes they could make it better and harder but they knew people are already too spoiled by QoL lazy mainstream culture). Classic was not created upon retail players calls or creationists of new version of wow. Those should focus being on retail or SOD seasons.
Blizzard wanted force that private server to shut down. People running it said they will just put up new server out of reach Blizz lawyers if they dont release classic.
Classic would never happen out of Blizzard free will. They were basicaly forced to do it thanks many odds going agaist them. They never trully believed into success of it.
Simple as that sucess was ther thanks to many odss aligning with classic design. But if classic was created on mirror of QoL changes it would never ever get that players playing who played it. It made return lots of people who didnt play retail for years.
Now why I am mentioning it. We have seen spiral of changes on retail. I seen arguments and people calling for changes on retail and fixing results of previous changes, yet blind playerbase overseeing own changes blaming always someone/something else for the negative impact of change they advocated for.
I will repeat this again. MoS is invalid buff that should not appear on classic ERA. If anything else Blizzard should fix bug and prevent Alliance getting Rend instead. Due its not fair towards horde comparing how easier is pve progress of Alliance.
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Man just spitting facts after facts!
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I, too, fear the spiral, brother. The slippery slope of more changes leaking in. Thatâs why Iâm only talking about this one change, something we already got! Maybe it was a case of a broken clock being right twice a day, but that was the one change the game sorely needed right now.
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It is a huge issue because it caters to raidloggers and parsers only, and also and more specifically, Alliance warriors.
What if the unintended consequence of this change is that the Horde dwindles in numbers even more and we get to a point were it makes little sense to roll Horde, at all?
You all 100% not giving this any sort of thought.
If you donât want ganking, join the current live PvE server
PvE cluster is your way to go, if you make it be such a big problem.
I am starting to think you guys did not really consider what a pvp realm is before you joined.
100% - MoS is present in SoD. Is MoS such a big thing? Go to SoD.
Oh my God this argument⌠go play on a PvE server LOL You CANNOT rebut this. You PvErs refer to PvP as griefing? What are you doing in Firemaw?
What is the counter argument to this? What is Elwenil saying here that is not 100% true
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It doesnât cater to raidloggers, it gives us more time to do other things in the game. Popping over to The Barrens and staying there for maybe an hour means youâre not participating in the MMO otherwise.
If you canât see the difference between PvP and griefing, I think youâre being wilfully obtuse.
The reason we want MoS is very similar to why we enjoy Chronoboons. Less downtime, less griefing - being sitting ducks, hiding from dedicated gankers.
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Just interesting. What other kind of activites u guys doing on PvP server but as PvE player.
Accoring to ur post , griefer =pvp player.
So why not just play PvE server where noone can gank you and take ur world buffsâŚ
You dont even need chronoboons for that either . You cant lose wbuffs if u simply dont die in PvE servers.
Current logs as of today:
Raids
- Top 50 MC clear times EU â 39 Alliance, 11 Horde
- Top 50 BWL clear times EU â 38 Alliance, 12 Horde
- Top 50 AQ40 clear times EU â 35 Alliance, 15 Horde
- Top 50 Naxx clear times EU â 36 Alliance, 14 Horde
Performance
- Top 100 MC DPSers EU â 95% Warriors, 79% Alliance Warriors
- Top 100 BWL DPSers EU â 98% Warriors, 75% Alliance Warriors
- Top 100 AQ40 DPSers EU â 98% Warriors, 76% Alliance Warriors
- Top 100 Naxx DPSers EU â 99% Warriors, 69% Alliance Warriors
So, the most overpowered of the two factions, and their most overpowered class, wants even more, to be competitive? With whom? Among yourselves?
Who can be the strongest Alliance Warrior in warcraftlogs, this is your top argument. Also, what is the incentive to play Horde if at all. If rading, parses and âbeing competitiveâ is #1 priority, then why would anyone in their right mind join the horde!?
You do not define what griefing is. Simple as. Same as people PvEing in AV who say PvPing is griefing. No, it doesnât work like this.
But you know where all that, that you define as griefing doesnât happen? The PvE cluster. The solution to YOUR problem, not OURS, is right there for the taking. And again, you are not rebutting this, because you simply canât.
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A lot of people play horde, you included it looks like. You think alliance Rend would make horde that much less attractive? Iâd hope not, I like playing horde too.
PvE server isnât the solution man, and the argument here is also very simple: it would not be fun, the population is too small, and most of us do prefer a PvP server. We just think alliance Rend would make it more enjoyable. Gets rid of the part that sucks.
We can even agree to call it PvP, not griefing. Call it a charming game of cat and mouse, hide and seek. People still hate it, and the waiting for horde instead of going UBRS ourselves. Itâs a video game, it should be fun. This part isnât. Itâs not more complicated than that.
If we introduce changes to cater for competitive parsers only, yes, 100%. All those Horde warriors from the stats are from just one guild (Fun Police). So we are one guild away from full Alliance dominance.
You guys say you want to be competitive - The numbers make it very clear, it would only boost competition among yourselves. You are already 3/4 of the top DPSers across all raids.
This is not about the ability to clear content, b/c you can do that with eyes closed anytime you want, with the amount of buffs at your disposal + paladins + much higher talent pool.
This is about clogging the logs with 100% Alliance Warriors, all the time, for your own convenience.
Horde has traditionally been more populated with PvPers. This is a known fact. Now we have a PvP system that heavily rewards PvErs only. As a consequence, what is the incentive here to roll horde too? Look at Q times, sometimes Alliance now has to wait 30+ mins for an AV Pop.
So in other words:
- We all have to fold to PvE oriented changes that specifically favor the already uncontested most overpowered class in the game (Top clear Naxx time had 23, twenty three, warriors)
- PvP has turned to a PvE grind which means Horde cannot use their PvP superiority racials-wise to lure players to join the faction. Q times for both factions are diverging as a consequence
- You all have made it very clear, it is not about clearing content, it is about being competitive - With whom!? Look at the stats. Horde DPSers are just ONE guild away from complete obliteration in the logs.
All this leads to a mono-faction server b/c it makes literally zero sense to roll horde. You also do not want to switch to the PvE server because:
Same with the horde if we cater to these changes!? Hello?
We need still keep repeating that MOS is not something you need or you should be granted to have? Unless you wanna recreate entire PVE design for Alliance and Horde.
Fact is that Rend was never ment to be for Alliance. There was and still is valid reason why it should be only for Horde.
So if you asking for any change you should be asking for change that fix that Alliance cant get any form of Rend. To make complete and fixed game.
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Oh boy, where to start!
If you are going to tell us the history of anything, please leave your blatant bias at the door. You can always commenton it afterwards. Speculating and guesswork are not facts of history and you shouldnât mix them together.
As you are already well aware, Iâve been one of those people calling for a vanilla-style official server since the original TBC launched back in the day. So what you are saying is wrong. Many like me wanted some changes. We realized that Blizzard wasnât like back in vanilla and didnât communicate with the community, which lead to #nochanges. It was fear of a retail game in vanilla environment. Thatâs not what we are discussing here. We all agree that we dnoât want that. We are also not calling for era to become SoD, so none of us understands why you keep saying to go to those games. Those are not what we want, neither are what we are discussing.
Again, Iâm one of the people that returned to the game. Eventhough Iâve feared changes like many others, I too wanted changes from the start. We didnât get many compared to what we could ahve gotten, neither have we gotten many changes in era compared to what we could have gotten. But simply by being one of the people who would welcome some changes, Iâm proving your statement wrong.
I do however, like mentioned before, fear mid-big changes. We arenât talking about those here though. We arenât SoD or retail and wont become it.
MoS isnât an invalid buff. But I fully accept that you donât like it in the game. Again, the buff isnât there to balance the factions. Please read my earlier posts, Iâve pointed this out as being false. It has no merit to it. WBs werenât designed to balance factions let alone be used in raids/dungeons (except Naxx). So please stop spreading that lie, thank you.
While benefitting alliance warriors the most, it caters to alliance as a whole. Itâs debateable if it caters to horde, but definitely to alliance as a whole.
Alliance: No more raidlogging meaning more dungeons and raids which in turn means we are around in the world getting from place to place, so more world pvp and BGs too. BRM will be booming as it was.
Horde: More alliance about in the world means more world pvp and more alliance for BGs. Counter would be that horde population might decline for some reason, but we donât know if it will. As pointed out many possibilities are theorized but none is known. Could go up, could go down, could stay the same. We have ofc thought about it. We donât think alliance side having less to none raidlogging will destroy horde faction.
As stated earlier, PvE doesnât fix the problem. Neither does SoD or retail for that matter. So, please stop suggesting it as a solution, as it isnât one.
ALso, no, as weâve talked about earlier, we have different views of what PvP is. Griefing is a subsection of PvP bbut importantly doesnât include all PvP.
An example of differences would be a scenario where player a is afk for one reason or another (could be disconnect) and player b kills player a. One type of player would typically categorize that as PvP, while another type of player would not, since the player wasnât there, but the char was. Itâs all about the interaction. Some people call it amazing PvP to gank lowlevels. Some just call it PvP, while others calls it pathetic or doesnât call it anything at all. Most of the people here loved the PvP back in vanilla and wanted that. In ALL my time in classic and era, Iâve seen 2 fights that was as good as back then, the rest are not worth mentioning and has nothing to do with the PvP back in vanilla. When it comes to PvP itâs all about the players and so it directly changes with the players. Iâd love some good PvP, but I havenât been able to find it anywhere in classic or era.
If one is the rare type of player that only PvEs and thatâs on a PvP servers, itâs typically because of friends, AH and/or population. Not the PvP. Hope this answers both of your question.
The numbers do seem to lign up. Itâs not about overpowered but about population. Specially when it comes to raids, since most people know that if you love raiding you should choose alliance, as weâve talked about before. Would make sense that alliance would do better in raids, by numbers. All the top dpsâers having Rend buff, I assume, soooo not making a difference there? Just that those players wouldnât have to be raidlogged for a period of time and could do something else. Competition is against everyone, but mainly ourselves. Itâs about improving yourself raid by raid.
No! Itâs usually by class if compared to someone else. Logs are weird that way. If they werenât spreading Ignite between mages but kept it as in game, mages would have all the top logs, I guess. Warriors are there kind of artificially. Classes have different perposes, like a mage could be great at damage, but wipe the raid because they didnât decurse. Itâs part of the logs and the competition, but itâs mostly measuring up against yourself.
Horde has many fun abilities. Windfury being the main attraction ofc! When Iâve talked with people as to why they arenât playing horde, itâs either raicials (~10%) or that they donât like the people there (~90%). Iâm not saying those are general numbers but those have been the numbers for the people Iâve talked with. When Iâve spoken with horde as to why they play horde itâs shaman machanics/utility (~50%), racials (~35%) and griefing (~15%). I dnoât know if itâs anywhere near a general number but none Iâve spoken with have said because easy Rend. Best reason for joining horde is stronger in PvP, as weâve talked about earlier.
Griefing happens on PvE servers too, alas definitely not as much.
The solution to our problems is getting MoS, not PvE server. As stated before, switching to a PvE server doesnât solve our problem, but getting MoS (or smimilar) does. Iâve rebutted your statement in an ealier post FYI.
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