Fix Alterac Valley

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Altermaniel-mograine

Stop justifying changes with other changes.

I have never done that. Show me where I have done that.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Premading happened in vanilla. The queue system was never changed to make it impossible.

Premades is not a problem. The problem is when only one faction can form premades. I wouldn’t even call it premade when you have realm specific queues. They used a different queue in Vanilla retail that we have never used in Classic.

@Altermaniel-mograine

How can you then say that something unintended was going on?

Because in Vanilla both factions could form premades in AV while in Classic only one faction could for premades in AV. The queue system in Classic was broken and is broken and is not and was not authentic.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Just because the modern Blizzard Activision which has little to do with the Blizzard that actually made vanilla other than the name thinks so it proves very little.

Yes Activision Blizzard choose to use an unauthentic queue system in Classic that have been one of the components that have made Classic AV what it is.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Same with the reward system. AFKing to get rewards in BGs happened since BG rewards were introduced and is going to happen as long as you get anything out of a BG.

It’s is SPECIFICALLY against the EULA to do that. Many people have been suspended for that. It’s REASONABLE to fix a system that is being exploited in an unintended way to gain an unfair advantage.

@Altermaniel-mograine

It’s against the rules but again there were changes that prevent players from sanctioning AFKing and Blizzard only punishes the very worst offenders with a slap on the wrist.

I don’t understand what you are saying here.

@Altermaniel-mograine

It is 100% authentic (other than Galv giving rewards once Balinda is dead).

The queue system have never been authentic in Classic.
The reward system is authentic but it’s being exploited in an unintended way that is breaking the EULA.

Can you now pls answer my question I posted above abut changing the map?

[Altermaniel-mograine]

You are justifying wanting to change the authentic vanilly queue system with the fact the battlegroup sizes are different. What else is that than justifying a change with a change? And you want to straight up change the authentic reward system because you don’t like what it allows. Quite literally “you think you do, but you don’t”. Completely arbitrarily deciding which bits of the game are fine and which aren’t isn’t exactly what I’d expect from someone claiming to want to play the recreation of vanilla.

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Altermaniel-mograine

You are justifying wanting to change the authentic vanilly queue system with the fact the battlegroup sizes are different.

What change do you think I am justifying?

@Altermaniel-mograine

What else is that than justifying a change with a change?

What change? You are claiming that I have justified a change based on another change. Which change is that?

@Altermaniel-mograine

And you want to straight up change the authentic reward system because you don’t like what it allows.

Here is a screenshoot from my last AV:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614081264751738920/757619011591733318/unknown.png

These alliance are choosing to be inactive to get the maximum honor by losing AV as fast as possible. This is against the EULA and by the definition of the EULA a cheat and an exploit. It’s not intended. This is why Alliance lose 100% of all games, the reward system. My argument is that the system in being exploited in an unintended way. But it’s worse, it more or less forces players into exploiting the system in this way. So my argument is that it’s REASONABLE to tweak that specific system for that specific reason. And my argument is that it would fix the situation we have in AV today where it’s more rewarding for the faction with a short queue to be inactive and lose fast compared to being active and winning slow.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Quite literally “you think you do, but you don’t”.

Dude, I am not the one asking for changes in AV. I have however pointed out that the map is not the reason and that it’s the queue and reward system that is the reason for this situation. Blizzard have made it clear that fixing unintnded exploits is well within the core values of Classic where authenticity is the main concern.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Completely arbitrarily deciding which bits of the game are fine and which aren’t isn’t exactly what I’d expect from someone claiming to want to play the recreation of vanilla.

I have NEVER talked about what is “fine” or anything like that. I have ONLY talked about what is AUTHENTIC and what is being EXPLOITED in an unintended way.

[Altermaniel-mograine]

The change to the authentic queue system that was made because you (among others) didn’t like what the vanilla queue allowed. You are justifying but saying it wasn’t authentic in the 1st place even though the fact that more people are in the same queue doesn’t mean the system itself isn’t authentic.

Well like I said. After being kicked in the teeth by the imbalanced map for months people are quite demoralised leading to such behaviour which leads to the winrate that we have even though the map imballance might not be as drastic as that. Doesn’t mean the reward system isn’t authentic though.

Right. Becuase the changed you wanted have already been made. So you are no longer asking for them. And I’m not asking for changes either. If anything I’d like the changes that were made to the queue system (and the map itself) to be reversed. I am however pointing out that the map is imballanced to Horde’s favour.

Replacing “fine” and “not fine” with “authentic” and “exploitative” literally changes nothing. It’s arbitrary standards of what should and what shouldn’t be changed. Bottom line is that you yourself wanted the authentic vanilla queue system to be changed because you didn’t like the result. So you really can’t fall back on the “authenticity” defence.

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Altermaniel-mograine

The change to the authentic queue system that was made because you (among others) didn’t like what the vanilla queue allowed.

It wasn’t an authentic Vanilla queue. Vanilla never had a queue with one massive battlegroup where one faction could form premeds and not the other faction. The new unique unauthentic system was being exploited and Blizzard Hotfixed it, three times.

The queue system is still causing problems with that one huge battlegroup. I want Classic to use the authentic Vanilla queue system with either a small battlegroup or one realm wide queues for AV.

@Altermaniel-mograine

You are justifying but saying it wasn’t authentic in the 1st place

It literally wasn’t. But that’s not the justification. the justification was the ExPLOIT.

@Altermaniel-mograine

even though the fact that more people are in the same queue doesn’t mean the system itself isn’t authentic.

I don’t agree with you but that’s irrelevant to the EXPLOIT situation. The queue was being EXPLOITED in an unintended way so Blizzard had to hotfix that EXPLOIT.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Well like I said. After being kicked in the teeth by the imbalanced map for months

For months? It’s the same damn map since 2004 dude. 16 years. And you act like it’s a new map or something. The only thing that have changed is the queue and how the scale of how the reward system is being exploited.

@Altermaniel-mograine

people are quite demoralised leading to such behaviour

I agree. Not for the same reason you believe but I agree. We need to fix this without making changes to anything that is authentic and working as intended.

@Altermaniel-mograine

which leads to the winrate that we have even though the map imballance might not be as drastic as that.

Ok so if the map imbalance is not so drastic as that, your words. What do you believe is the main cause that makes the situation so drastic?

@Altermaniel-mograine

Doesn’t mean the reward system isn’t authentic though.

I have never claimed that the reward system is not authentic. How have done that? You make it sound like someone have made that claim.

I have claimed that the reward system is the MAIN REASON behind this EXTREME situation where Alliance lose 100% of all pugs in AV and this it is in fact being exploited in an unintended way and therefor it’s reasonable to tweak that.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Right. Becuase the changed you wanted have already been made.

It was a hotfix to an unauthentic system that was being exploited.

@Altermaniel-mograine

So you are no longer asking for them.

Dude. I am the only person on this forum that is still talking about the queue system. I am the person who is saying, OVER AND OVER that the AV situation is a result of the QUEUE and REWARD system.

@Altermaniel-mograine

And I’m not asking for changes either. If anything I’d like the changes that were made to the queue system (and the map itself) to be reversed.

Classic have never had an authentic queue system. The first version was being exploited so it would be unreasonable to use that again. The map was changed to help Alliance when they closed the backdoors that was in fact an unintended exploits. Is that the changes you want to revert?

Personally I would want them to use an actual authentic queue system from Vanilla retail and not some broken exploited custom version and not revert the backdoor exploits that was reasonable to fix.

@Altermaniel-mograine

I am however pointing out that the map is imballanced to Horde’s favour.

Ok, but why? It’s your opinion, you are entitled to having your opinion and expressing your opinion, but what is the goal with doing that? I can point out many imbalances in this game, even imbalances that favor alliance in AV, but, what would be the point? it’s a recreation.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Replacing “fine” and “not fine” with “authentic” and “exploitative” literally changes nothing.

So why are -YOU- doing that?

@Altermaniel-mograine

It’s arbitrary standards of what should and what shouldn’t be changed.

No it’s not. I have never heard anyone used words like that. the only thing that matters in a RECREATION is what is authentic and what is being exploited. I mean most authentic things are “not fine” to be honest. I mean it’s Vanilla we are talking about.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Bottom line is that you yourself wanted the authentic vanilla queue system to be changed

Bottom line is that you are an dishonest Straw Man. I do not want that. I want Classic to use the authentic Vanilla queue system but that has never been used in Classic ever.

@Altermaniel-mograine

because you didn’t like the result.

it

was

being

exploited

in

an

unintded

way

@Altermaniel-mograine

So you really can’t fall back on the “authenticity” defence.

Authenticity is the primary concern. The thing that matters the most in an recreation. If we ever want to make changes we better have DAMN GOOD and specific reasons for it and are able to point to an specific exploit. And when we have presented what specific exploit we want to hotfix we can discuss that.

The AV map is an authentic recreation (with the exception of the backdoors being closed). It is being used as intended and is not being exploited.

If we want to fix the extreme result we have in AV we need to find specific exploits or broken unathentic systems to tweak or better, revert to an authentic system.

[Altermaniel-mograine]

Right. So you’re justifying a change with another change. Fact is that in vanilla it was the same thing. In battlegroups where one faction had significantly longer queues premades were more difficult to form for that faction. Of course since battlegroups were implemented much later than they were put into Classic we can’t know exactly how it would have played out if they had been released when BGs released but there’s no reason to think the result would have been significantly different since the queue system was exactly the same as it was in vanilla.

And if it were indeed an exloit and unintended behaviour it would have been changed in vanilla since premades in AV happened back in vanilla. How can we then say that this is unintended behaviour? There are thousands of quirks in vanilla which could be labeled as an “exploit” but since they’re part of what vanilla was they shouldn’t be changed. Otherwise it’s just more “you think you do, but you don’t”.

And once again: the queue has been changed because you (among others) wanted it to. Also claming that the “scale” of something that has been happening in vanilla is now great enough to justify changes means that just about every aspect of the game can be changed. There is nothing I can think of that wouldn’t fall into this category. It’s another arbitrary standard and more “you think you do, but you don’t”.

And stop paroting your “recreation” line. You have proven that you are perfectly fine with whatever changes you want no matter how authentic of a recreation something is and have even gone so far to justify wanting to change a system to be completely different to how it was with the fact that something else was changed. You don’t want to play the recreation of vanilla if you pick and chose which bits you want and which you don’t.

[Bitterborn-ragnaros (Bitterborn)]

Thats not even close to the truth, I played a lot on the alliance side as a merc and they were more organised and were more keen to follow strats. On horde side you will see 5 different langue screeching and everyone running around with 50k hp. And Im probably not alone with that opinion if you want to win a random bg as a horde you have to play it on the alliance side because the horde have around 70% lose ratio in that and the opposite on epic bgs but still on AVs the alliance can win just fine unlike in classic.

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Altermaniel-mograine

Right. So you’re justifying a change with another change.

Straw Man. No I am not and I have explained that more than once.
You are taking my argument, distorting it, and attacking the distortion. Present you own argument instead.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Fact is that in vanilla it was the same thing.

I disagree. And so did Blizzard who hotfixed the exploited system three times.

@Altermaniel-mograine

In battlegroups where one faction had significantly longer queues premades were more difficult to form for that faction.

Ok?

@Altermaniel-mograine

Of course since battlegroups were implemented much later than they were put into Classic

Weird usage of the word “of course”, but whatever.

@Altermaniel-mograine

we can’t know exactly how it would have played out if they had been released when BGs released but there’s no reason to think the result would have been significantly different since the queue system was exactly the same as it was in vanilla.

Ok so you have presented a hypotheses here. Now what?

@Altermaniel-mograine

And if it were indeed an exloit and unintended behaviour

What do you mean “if”? It literally and specifically were an exploit that was hotfixed.

@Altermaniel-mograine

it would have been changed in vanilla since premades in AV happened back in vanilla.

Would have could have should have. Words that are totally pointless in a discussion about a recreation.

@Altermaniel-mograine

How can we then say that this is unintended behaviour?

How can we say that one faction forming raid size premades in a pug battlegrounds is unintended? I honestly can’t think of anything more easy to do. It’s unintended. By definition unintended. It’s also an exploit and cheat, by definition, according to the EULA.

@Altermaniel-mograine

There are thousands of quirks in vanilla which could be labeled as an “exploit”

We are talking about a raid premade for one faction only that was circumventing a specific limitation to exploit a queue system to gain an unfair advantage over people not using such methods. That’s not a “quirk” my dude.

@Altermaniel-mograine

but since they’re part of what vanilla was they shouldn’t be changed. Otherwise it’s just more “you think you do, but you don’t”.

We are talking about a raid premade for one faction only circumventing a specific limitation to exploits a queue system to gain an unfair advantage over people not using such methods. That was never part of Vanilla.

I want the same queue system as in Vanilla. We have never had that in Classic.

I think I do want the authentic Vanilla queue system. I am really sure I want that. We have never had it yet.

@Altermaniel-mograine

And once again: the queue has been changed because you (among others) wanted it to.

The queue system was HOTFIXED because it was being EXPLOITED in an unintended way.

@Altermaniel-mograine

Also claming that the “scale” of something that has been happening in vanilla is now great enough to justify changes means that just about every aspect of the game can be changed.

I have never used the scale of anything in Vanilla retail as an argument for anything anywhere at any time.

@Altermaniel-mograine

here is nothing I can think of that wouldn’t fall into this category.

Me neither? What are you even talking about?

@Altermaniel-mograine

It’s another arbitrary standard and more “you think you do, but you don’t”.

It’s you who are saying that, not me. I have no idea what you are talking about.

@Altermaniel-mograine

And stop paroting your “recreation” line.

No

@Altermaniel-mograine

You have proven that you are perfectly fine with whatever changes you want no matter how authentic of a recreation something is

When did I do that? Show me pls. Quote it >>>

@Altermaniel-mograine

and have even gone so far to justify wanting to change a system to be completely different to how it was with the fact that something else was changed.

Sigh, you are a very dishonest Straw Man. Is that the third or firth time you make that straw man claim now?

yaaaaaawm

@Altermaniel-mograine

You don’t want to play the recreation of vanilla if you pick and chose which bits you want and which you don’t.

That is the opposite of what I am saying and what I want.

[Seluna-pyrewood-village]

Alliance always lose because they don’t know how to defend. The end.

[Gottwald-draenor]

@Bads-outland

Yes, cos reaching rank 1 on your first season and not making it above 2k rating ever since doesn’t make you a wise guy in AV. Smells more like a boost buyer to me.
Edit: Just noticed your tabard, so I might not be correct on my statement. Your FoS seem fishy still

My first 2k rating was in TBC as Holy.
Multiple 2.2 and 2.3ks during Wotlk as Ret and then I got my first Glad in Cata.

Cataclysmic Glad 12.09.2012
Malevolent Glad 13.03.2013
Tyrannical Glad (The rank 1) 18.09.2013

Along with two HotH in about 300 games during that time (That I personally was the leader of during Cata).

Yes, very “fishy” indeed.

If you are still confused, go to Achievements/FoS/Mounts, literally took 10 seconds.

[Majesty-earthshaker]

@Bitterborn-ragnaros

Yeah i give up too on people like Beware and Bodiesan. They are only answering the questions they like to, and never accept anything that have anything to do with the horde advantage. Its just pointless.

We live in the age of “post-truth”. This is where logic and facts are less relevant to many “smart” and “woke” people and they will believe in whatever they want, even if it is something that would award you a place in a mental clinic 50 years ago.
The quality of truth is replaced with the quantity of dogshizz that you keep parrotting in this new era. There are millions of people that believe that the earth is flat and there are people that believe that the AV map is balanced/premades were cheating etc.

Oh and by the way, Blizzard will not ever fix AV. It will remain the same until TBC, whatever you do, so these topics are totally useless now. Classic is coming close to its end and I don’t see the point asking Blizzard to change anything at this point.
Just don’t queue AV, the gear you get from there isn’t that great at this stage anyway. I don’t even know who does any pvp nowadays, most people I know are just raidlogging and keeping their characters on a life support until TBC. Everything that Blizzard made with AV is a big fiasco but it is what it is.

[Ringil-razorgore]

If it wasn’t so one sided it would be a fun battleground to play.

Classic isn’t coming to an end either, even if we progress into classic tbc server with 60 cap will be available.

I don’t want av to be in such disgraceful state forever after.

[Austenite-ashbringer]

lol, probably the most passive-aggressive post I’ve read on here. Are you implying that people who don’t think the alliance are losing 98% of games due to the map, are somewhat mentally challenged flat-earthers (or at least ppl of similar capacity)? And possibly Blizzard as well? Please DESTROY the “smart” and “woke” ppl with your FACTS and LOGIC.

[Bads-outland]

@Gottwald-draenor

If you are still confused, go to Achievements/FoS/Mounts, literally took 10 seconds.

That’s what I did. Only shows Tyrannical Glad and rest of the seasons 2k

[Gottwald-draenor]

@Bads-outland

That’s what I did. Only shows Tyrannical Glad and rest of the seasons 2k

Gyazo

[Razamanaz-boulderfist]

It is because of the map!!!
It is because of the map!!!
It is because of the map!!!

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (The German Reich Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945)

[Bitterborn-ragnaros (Bitterborn)]

Yeah agree, I already gave up on classic since p2. I played on ZT where the horde was destroyed but still it was a bad and boring experience and AV was the last bs for me. I just cba with an old game where if you pick the smaller faction just for the balance the bigger faction will try to attack you and oppose anything you say even if their only arguments are truly idiotic instead of respect that some people tried to make the game balanced. Horde players thinking they are skilled/better in a game that have probably lower skill cap than any lvl30 retail character and there is basically no option to be better other than engineering gadgets and potions which just require time not skill to use. Anyway shadowlands will come in a month so good luck for classic.

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Bitterborn-ragnaros

Anyway shadowlands will come in a month so good luck for classic.

Why would an ActionRPG eSport skin collector game endanger an MMORPG?

[Flock-nethergarde-keep]

Please consider fixing what? AV back in the day was an everlasting mudfest untill both alliance and Horde figured out how to win AV. Welcome to present AV.

Your welcome.

[Ringil-razorgore]

almost 2 hour queue on one side, 95% loss rate on the other is not good game play.

Like when you guys were getting stomped by premades thanks to the original queue system - cried on the forum till blizzard scrambled the queues