You mean like 90% of the allie pugs do when it comes to Win The first clash in the mid???
Yes captain obvious, is what I said in the following sentence! 
Congratulations on having the stronger team for once!
What would happen if you didn’t cap IB GY on first try? Do you think that the alliance players would try again and again and again or do you think they would, you know, not try again?
I have never seen a horde pug go into panic in any AV I have ever played. Not even against a Russian premade. We always post tactics in chat and defend hard. if we don’t have enough defense we ask for more in RW. But anything can happen in a pug vs pug ofc. If Alliance have motivated players they can gank Horde if they want to, if it’s worth it. If they get a tag and cap SF/IB early they can totally believe it’s worth to fight to the end.
Alliance have a HUGE map favor in south where it’s MUCH more easy for Alliance to finish a game than it is for Horde. You are really good in nit picking details in AV map and totally ignore the details that doesn’t’ favor your agenda. For example compare SP GY and FW GY. SP GY is by FAR the best choke point in the whole map that favors Alliance and FW GY is just open fields, easy to cap, no way to defend.
Thats the resscap and the long run back to the fight showing through.
Yeah it takes a long time when you stop here with half the raid:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614081264751738920/756509751155622018/hillofshameav.jpg
This was today after they failed one push to IB GY.
Do you think it’s the map or the queue and reward system that makes them do that?
I am in an AV right now. They did not defend SH GY, failed ONE push to UB GY, and now I cant see any alliance anywhere.
Thats the effect of negative reinforcement for months on end.
This is my point.
Yes, kinda, but yours is based on the rewardsystem, my point is based on the map being in the favour of one side. Some people make it seem like the odds are insurmountable. They are not. It’s definitly possible to win as alliance.
With much more effort than the other side. Would it be Counterstrike the Counterterrorist would be starting with M4s right out of the gate while the Terrorists still go at it with guns.
Can they win? Sure they can. It’s just less likely.
I want to hear your opinion.
If 40 vs 40 random players fight in AV with the goal of killing the faction leader first 100 times. Random players every time (you switch faction randomly) with some what equal gear and skill.
If you completely remove the rewards and queue. All they fight for is to win.
At what percentage do you think Alliance would win?
Equal skill and equal gear?
I can only guess (and I hope thats what you’re asking for.) and I’d say it’s about 55:45 or maybe 60:40 in favour of the horde. That’s not too bad and close to the usual match-up rates in fighting games like Smash Brother, Streetfighters etc. between Tiers.
It doesn’t matter as much in those games cause you’re not bound to the specific character (in the example of WoW faction) and you usually play best of 3 with changing stages, characters etc.
In AV we have one map thats always played from one side with a favour on one side that never changes.
First of all, I agree with you. I think that’s a reasonable assessment.
The result right now is 100/0. An EXTREME imbalance. You yourself don’t even think that’s due to the map, you think the map is part of an equation, but something else than the map is the MAIN reason we have this extreme result.
Am I right when I am saying this?
What do you think the other MAIN reason is? Those last 40-45% of the equation.
I don’t think the Map is the main reason, but I think its at the “core”, if that makes sense.
If you constantly play at a disavantage without having the chance to return the favour via a change of sides, picking a different character (fighting game example again) you’re stuck, quasi. If you keep losing, knowing its not an even fight and there is nothing you can do against it that leads to a negative reinforcement loop. (Demotivated People, Defeatist attitude, etc.)
Edit: If that example is a bit too far away, you can also often see it with warrior vs. mage matchup. Very often you see the warrior just sitting in the freeze and not moving because he knows he’s at a disadvantage.
Ok, let’s see if we can get this anywhere.
Fact: Classic is a recreation of the game how it was. The AV map is an authentic recreation of the map how it was (with the exception of the closed backdoors). Changing this map is not possible.
We have already established that the MAIN reason is not actually the map. And we can’t change the map even if it were. It may or may not be the core, but we can’t change that.
What thing would you like to change to make AV better with the exception of the map?
Personally I have some ideas, for example, give a bonus to the winning faction and only reward the bonus honor to players that stay until the end including players that joined late. Make this bonus only for the faction with the lower win rate, and gradually increase the bonus until both factions reach a similar win rate. Something like that. Give Alliance something to FIGHT for, and not just show up, collect some bonus honor and HK and wait for next.
I think that would go very far.
If, at all possible, I’d add to that maybe a coinflip at the beginning of the game to decide who starts on what side. Swap the NPCs and their locations, change the colours of the flag. Kind of a reconquista style of game.
That’s absurd. Dude, don’t you see how absurd that is in Classic? I thought you was some what serious… This was a mistake, right?
It would be the ideal solution if
wasn’t a thing, proven by many other games. I don’t really see another way except letting both sides play with and against the (slight) advantages/disadvantages of the map.
It would technically still be the exact same map though.
Ok, switching sides is 100% out of the question in Classic.
Do you have some other idea?
Hm… A common complaint is the race to the middle. To specifically adress that, maybe open the horde gate at a later point so both sides arrive at the middle-point at the same time and make the cave the last possible graveyard the Horde can ressurect at if all other graveyards are already capped.
Something like that. Mess with timers to account for the geographic advantage.
Now we are talking. That’s a reasonable tweak. I think it’s totally reasonable that the both factions reach middle at the same time.