If thats too harsh a tweak, maybe apply the same logic. The cave ress is another advantage because it’s so close, so maybe add the “gained” walkway to the corresponding alliance graveyard to the resstimer. Because it doesn’t really matter if they are walking there or waiting in ghost if the time-gain from killing an opposing player stays the same.
Same would need to be applied to the Alliance cave as well then. You know, since it’s literally the same situation when you compare SH gy->SP gy/Alliance cave.
Either the distance to SH gy from SP gy is a problem, which would make it the very same problem for Horde trying to assault SP gy, or it isn’t a problem at all.
As well as how either the cave respawns being so close is a problem, which would make it the same problem for Horde trying to capture SP GY after assaulting it, or it isn’t a problem at all.
You can’t go applying those kinds of tweaks only to one side you know. That’s just pandering to the widespread mindset issues which is the real cause for losing so much.
You mean the alliance entrance cave near SP being the problem?
I didn’t say it’s a problem. I’ve never called cave respawns a problem. Since if you’re able to send more than 10 players to the GY each 30 second ress wave, it kinda indicates an overwhelming power difference.
But objectively speaking, distance difference is the same, ress numbers are the same and so on, when you compare it to IB GY with SF gy vs. Horde cave.
So how can it then be a problem for one side, when it isn’t for the other? According to the ones arguing about map design, this should make SP GY an “insurmountable obstacle clearly in favor of Alliance” for the Horde players. Yet it never really is, is it?
The distance is the same, the Graveyard you are sent to is not. It depends how close to the bridge you die to which graveyard you are sent to at SP. Closer to the bridge sends you into the base to Stormpike Aid, closer to the flag/spawn at SPGY sends you to the cave. The team gets effectively split on that GY on some occasions.
On SP you also can easily scale the wall and shoot through it right to where people ress.
Yet I don’t see a reason not to apply the same stuff to both caves, sure, why not. I’d even advocate to not send alliance to the cave at all, but exclusively to base. Cave only when no other GY is available.
In that case, it means Alliance basically have access to 3 spirit ressers each wave, in a weird way, while on that side of the map.
See, now THAT is a change I’d see as reasonable. It’s a change they brought in, in patch 2.3.0 actually. And Classic’s AV already has quite a few changes from Burning Crusade’s AV, including linked threat of warmasters/marshals & faction bosses, and increased limit of people you can queue with set to 5 instead of 1 and so on.
inb4 people talk about moving the cave, the cave is where it was throughout the entirety of Vanilla and it’s in the original position. It was moved in patch 2.4.0, i.e. after people stopped ressing inside it in patch 2.3.0, because it was essentially a different AV because the AV rework had already occurred in patch 2.3.0 with reinforcements as a win condition, removal of elites, cut down time to burn stuff to 4 minutes instead of 5 minutes and so on. It was basically all about rushing with very little reason to defend in this version of AV in Burning Crusade. For both sides.
Which meant that the distance to the first tower vs. the first bunker played a very different role compared to the AV being played in Classic. Which is why in patch 2.4.0 after introducing reinforcements and making it so people don’t resurrect in the cave until all other GYs are taken in 2.3.0, they moved the cave location further south to match that run distance to the first bunker vs. the first tower, especially since all the elites were removed in patch 2.3.0.
They even had to put in an aura buff increasing HP and damage by 15% for each warmaster/marshal and faction boss while they’re near each other. Which was done to prevent boss rushes, and the only way to despawn warmasters/marshals is to burn towers/bunkers. They also made it so no new warmasters/marshals spawn when burning the enemy’s bunkers/towers.
Kinda, yes. But its not really an advantage cause it splits the team up massively. So much so that I’d consider it the best move to just let the horde have SP and turtle in base so everyone spawns there.
The worst case you could have at SP is everyone spawning in cave cause it leaves the base completely undefended for an easy taking. Even if you take SP back with a push from the cave it’s bad since the horde will now be sat in the easily defendable alliance base.
If cave respawn with up to 20 players each wave is such an advantage, that’d make it much easier to reclaim it since the Horde would be spawning at SH gy with only up to 10 players each wave which is much further away.
And the elites being near impossible to skip in Alliance’s base (almost, not entirely unskippable but you’re basically pulling off gymnastics moves while doing it) makes it kinda hard to get it alone, so if they leave SP GY to go for the base then that just means SP GY should be lost at that point to a few reclaiming it while the rest of the 20-man ress waves from the cave keeps using the trinket to teleport back to base to directly at the base GY flag.
You know, just a few examples of using the arguments about “Horde favored” map design can also be applied to the Alliance. Just in a different way in different places.
Uhm… What? It’s easier for the Alliance to defend against trinket recalls back to the Horde base, than it is for the Horde to defend against trinket recalls back to to the Alliance base. You know that, right?
And keep in mind, if you take back SP GY it means every Horde dying would be resurrecting at SH GY while assaulting the base GY flag. Which is why Horde doesn’t usually go for the base GY flag before SP GY is secured. Which again, SP GY is easier for Alliance to reclaim thanks to the closer spawns and cave respawns according to the “map advantage” logic, than it is for Horde to defend the assault since they’re resurrecting at SH GY.
So you’ve really gotta ask yourself, is map advantage in specific places even relevant? Like, at all? I’d argue no. The one relevant & decisive factor in all of this, comes down to the PvP. Which you’re guaranteed to almost never have two equal factions in the same BG, ever, in terms of gear, skill, teamwork, setup and so on. One side will inevitably come out on top. Which is why those widespread mindset issues is such a big problem.
So once the “cream of the crop” of the best players stopped queuing for AV on the Alliance side ever since the premades got mitigated, Horde have always had a greater average of top players who queues for it. Mainly because of the way it’s still worth it for Honor on the Horde side, and the WPvP phase also indicated a greater average of PvP-oriented players on the Horde side.
This is also why you see Alliance having success when they group up with 4 of their bis geared friends in PvP specs while also getting matched up with 1 or 2 other 5-man groups like that. So on and so forth. It comes down to securing that greater average of players who doesn’t keyboard turn nor backpedal, and knows how to use their abilities. Which the average leveler and badly geared players knows very little about still. Not to mention how bad gear and lower levels doesn’t really help the win chances…
And of course, let’s not forget the AFKers. They deserve an honorary mention. The impact of that on the PvP difference in the BG is immense.
Imagine 5 of your 10 man pug squad in WSG randomly going AFK because you lost the first clash in mid. It’s kinda like that.
I never claimed map advantage was the sole reason for the uneven winrate. It’s part of the reason just as much as the individuals gear and skill. How thats weighted is debatable.
So after everything mentioned now, what do you even claim is a map advantage? I mean, you can’t have a closer GY be an advantage in one place yet a disadvantage in another. You also can’t have a cave respawn be an advantage in one place, yet a disadvantage in another.
So on and so forth. The walls of text speak for themselves already.
Of course it can be an advantage in one place and not in another. Depends what is around it. It’s especially advantageous if it is near a required progression graveyard like Iceblood with no comparable option available for the other side.
Are you seriously claiming SP GY isn’t a “required progression graveyard”?
No, I’m claiming there is no comparable ress near SH while IB and FWGY are covered by the exact same resscave.
But in exchange, Alliance have a closer GY to the first clash, and closer elite NPCs to the first clash, so they should be able to push the Horde back even from the very first clash. You know, according to the importance of “map advantage” you keep arguing about.
Not to mention the difficulty difference in capturing the first bunker vs. the first tower, thanks to the elites.
The first clash is also close and/or right on the Alliance Flag because the Horde arrives there way faster with a low resscap. Ten I think it was.
I never said that. I said it’s one of many factors. You’re confusing me with someone else.
10 is the normal ress cap. 20 is within the caves. According to what people say anyway, haven’t really noticed more than 10 ever resurrecting at the same time though.
Anyhoo, it’s not on top of the Alliance flag. At full speed, with carrot etc. you’ve got both sides clashing at the side of Balinda’s bunker. One which is very disadvantageous for Horde to do on the side of the stonehearth bunker.
You do place a lot of emphasis on it.
And also, keep in mind, it’s much easier for Alliance to rush the Horde base than it is for the Horde to rush the Alliance base.
You know, once it reaches that point. Which it never really does anymore.
But ok, to bottomline it:
Any and all obstacle on the map, can be pushed through with sheer offensive power. Which makes that PvP and stubbornness an absolute necessity. Which is why:
is what’s the real issue.
I never denied or adressed that even, because its not as prominent of a problem.
Yes, one of many factors.
That’s just misrepresenting its relevance, to claim it’s “just as much”.
inb4 some hillbilly comes in to yell “but da map!!” again, I’ll just refer to the previous posts. Unless people actually want it to be like a Twitter storm.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to admit that there is a map imbalance and that it matters. It’s not actually the hordes fault that it is this way, and neither is anyone blaming them for it.
Because it’s objectively false…? As already covered. You know, unless you’ve got some substantial counterarguments instead of just “da map, bro!” while relying on falsehoods.
Is it really that hard to admit the BG is simply decided with the PvP? And the way people expect it to somehow end up in a 50/50 win rate with every BG having a perfectly equal chance to win with chaotic unrated matchmaking is ludicrous. What do people even think rated matchmaking is for?