A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.
How is that not a Straw Man argument? Please enlightening me. I have never said that. I have AWLAYS been 100% clear that the MAIN reason is the queue and rewards system. Now you try to twist this, distort my point and attack that distortion.
Again, the map is NOT the main reason, the MAIN reason is the queue and reward system, The map -MAY- have -SOME- part in this but not in a balance sense, more of a core design sense where the whole map is designed to be slow and that benefits the faction with a long queue.
Yes, as I have always been. I know for a fact 100% sure that the map is not the main issue based on personal experience from playing emulated Vanilla since 2015 on both faction and many different versions.
The main reason is the queue and reward system where it’s more rewarding for Alliance, or any faction with a short queue, to lose fast compared to winning slow.
No map could ever make one side lose literally 100% of all pugs. That’s even absurd to think. The map MAY have SOME part of this, but we can’t know if it does because the reward and queue system as a HUGE factor compared to that.
you can keep saying strawman all you want but you are clearly trying to grapple with an idea that you don’t fully understand. you can’t even understand that you have contradicted yourself in the same thread and that’s the point i was making when i quoted from two of your previous posts.
i’m not sure where it was established that the map is not the main issue but i want to draw your attention to the part where you say
that is not a definitive statement, you clearly say “IT MAY OR MAY NOT” so presumably you accept the possibility that it may be the core or it may not be. it indicates a level of uncertainty that you, yourself, have clearly shown by using the words “may or may not”. there is nothing here for me to distort.
this is a definitive statement which i have not distorted. i pointed out that in two posts in the same thread you appear to have stated two different opinions.
you have convinced yourself that incentive determines the result but if the incentive has always been the same for both sides how can the result be so skewed in favour of one faction? your proposal to change the reward system only tries to rebalance the scales once they tip one way, it doesn’t explain how they tipped so heavily in the first place.
really? you can’t imagine a map where one side cannot win? how about a spawn point in a pit that the opposing faction can shoot down into but you can’t get out of? not saying that’s a map that exists but if it did one side would always lose. now i’m not suggesting this is in any way comparable to AV but just wanted to suggest by way of example that terrain factors on a map could influence the outcome and maybe it wouldn’t be such a stretch of the imagination to accept that AV does, in fact, have advantages for the horde that are difficult to overcome. it doesn’t mean AV is unwinnable for alliance and i’m not suggesting that there are no other factors but to keep ignoring the obvious in favour of other, less plausible theories is just short sighted.
what about the reward incentive for WSG or AB? why no win/loss imbalance there?
This is my claim: The MAIN reason is the reward and queue system. The map may have some small part of the equation.
Everyone agree with this, even you, because even you don’t think the map is nowhere close to making one side win 100% and one losing 100%, not even close, no one believe that, so the main reason is something else.
You are nit picking and you are dishonest straw man:
Here is how you are a dishonest Straw Man:
You are a liar, what you are doing is dishonest lying when you straw man me like this. I literally said it’s not the main reason. And then you take one part out of context to distort my argument.
I am saying, that ITS NOT THE MAP, but EVEN if it was, we can’t change that. OBVIOULSY I phrased that some what unclear, but the fact that I literally said it the line before makes that very clear to a non straw man. You are distorting my argument and attacking the distortion.
NO YOU DID NOT, you picked a part of one sentence and did not include the part before where I literally say the opposite. You are a dishonest Straw Man. You are not presenting your own argument, you are attack a distortion of my argument.
The incentive is NOT the same for both factions when one faction have insta queue and the other 1h30min queue. The faction with a short queue get more rewards for losing fast compared to winning slow and the faction with long queue get more rewarded for winning or losing even if it is slow. And this is on a map where you can easily defend and stall games on any side.
No I can not.
You are obviously a troll. What is the point of even talking to you? You are taking my argument and twisting it some extreme disported version and attacking that distortion. Obviously my argument is that I can’t think of any REAL map that could make one side lose 100% of the games, as we see in AV today. I am not talking about magic or made up map that’s doesn’t exist and would never exist in reality.
Then why bring it up?
Yeah when you make it absurd.
I have said, many times, that the map COULD have SOME part of this EXTREME situation, but it’s not the MAIN part, not even close. And EVEN if it was the core reason, it could not be changed.
That comment you just made 100% proves that even you agree with me. It’s not the map. The map MAY have SOME part of the result, but even you don’t think the map could make one side lose 100% of the game, And the lioterally what is happening right now. Alliance are losing 100% of the games, the MAP IS NOT REASON for that.
Is this a serious question? Are you seriously asking this?
You can premade in WSG/AB.
No side can easily stall games. AB will end no matter what. You can stall in WSG but all the motivated good alliance play WSG in a small teams so a pug can’t stall for long, not even against other pugs. You are not rewarded for winning a slow game in WSG even with a long queue.
Answer this. How often would Alliance lose AV if there was no honor or rep rewards other than winning and killing last boss. All you have is 40 motivated Alliance fighting 40 motivated Horde that wants to win. What win percenatge would Alliance have? I know for a fact that you don’t think it’s anywhere near 100%, but 100% is what we have.
So again, the map MAY have SOME part of this result, but even if it does, it’s not the MAIN reason, not by far, and EVEN IF IT WAS THE MAIN REASON, it could not be changed, because the map is a recreation and nothing is being exploited.
SO talk about the MAIN issue that can actually be fixed. The map can not be balanced. The reward and queue system can.
If you had been in the same AVs as me and read what people are saying you would not be of the same opinion. It’s all talk about ‘let’s win’ and no talk about honor per hour. The quick loss talk comes after the first wipe, when the map ensures no chance to win for an hour, not before.
You and the other dimwit are really insulting. At some level you really seem to think that there is any big difference between Alliance and Horde. It’s just players who share 90 % of all traits who play the same classes in 90% of all cases and who make the same kind of decisions. They even have similar winrate in other BGs and their main objective in AV is to win. But the winrate is 5% and its because of deep psychological reasons and magic. Come on. There must be something that is working in there.
It’s more rewarding for Alliance to lose fast than to win slow. This is literally my argument. And it’s the reason one side lose 100% of the games in AV.
Both factions can stall and defend for a long time but that tactic is only rewarding for the faction with a long queue.
My argument is that the reward and queue systems makes the faction with a short queue get more rewards for losing fast compared to winning slow, and vise versa.
You then literally agree with me when you say:
You are LITERALLY agreeing with me that it’s not worth it for alliance to fight for a slow win and they rather let Horde win than to fight for a slow win.
This is my argument. You are confirming my argument.
This is how one faction can lose 100% of the games, the REWARD system, not map balance. The map is by design a slow map, it’s slow from both sides if any faction defends. But it’s only worth it to defend for the faction with a long queue and not worth it for the faction with a short queue.
If Horde and Alliance would switch sides, it would make no difference. If Horde have a long queue they would still defend and it would not be worth it for Alliance with a short queue to fight for slow win. It would even benefit horde because it’s easier to defend as Alliance so Horde would now beat all premades also just by defining long enough.
How can people not see that it is the reward system that makes Alliance lose so much?
You can actually tweak the reward system, you can’t tweak the map. So why even QQ about the map? I really don’t understand that. EVEN if the map was the main core issue, you could not change it. But you can change the reward and queue system. It’s like complain about the rain. You can’t make it stop raining, but you can use an umbrella. The reward system is the umbrella in my analogy and the rain is the map.
i’m not going into the whole strawman thing because we’ve already descended too far into potential unfriendliness and you don’t seem like a bad guy but i will address this:
i’m afraid you’re just making things up now.
no i don’t
yes i do, that’s exactly what i think.
yes they do, i do and going by the forums a fair amount of others do too. you should read them more.
no it isn’t. only when it has been established that it is not a map issue can you conclude that it must be something else. and until then i will staunchly maintain that it is purely because of map imbalances that horde win almost all of their AV matches.
If you have 2 teams fighting in AV. 40 random but generally motivated Alliance fighting 40 motivated Horde. Similar gear, level and skill. They don’t care about rep or honor, they only care about winning and killing the last boss first no matter how long time it takes.
At what percentage do you think Alliance would win?
Do you think it’s closer to 0% than 50%?
If you think it’s closer to 50% than 0% you are in fact agreeing with my argument that the main reason for alliance to lose 100% of the games in pug vs pug in AV is not the map.
He is saying that Alliance are pushing once and after that they start to talk about losing on purpose to make the game end fast because it’s not worth it to fight for a slow win. This is an alliance player that tried to disprove me but who literally confirms my argument that Alliance loose fast mainly because it takes to long to win so it’s not worth it so they rather lose fast.
These Alliance doesn’t do this because they have a lower chance of winning! They do it because it’s not WORTH it to fight for a slow win, so they rather lose fast. They can win, we don’t know how much, maybe it’s 40% of the times, maybe it’s 26%, maybe it’s 55%, we don’t know, but we do know IT’s NOT WORTH IT if it takes to long.
The map balance MAY have SOME part of this, but it’s the queue and reward system that makes them choose to lose fast rather than pushing for a slow win. And that’s how you end up with a situation where 40 random players are losing 100% of the games vs 40 other random players. Because they are not really random, and they don’t get the same rewards for the same time and effort and they don’t even fight against each other for rank. They are fighting their own faction on their own realm for rank. So winning is irrelevant against the horde, and vise versa, the main thing that the general players care about is honor per hour, not winning a PvEvP map.
How do we fix this? It’s simple actually. Tie most rewards to killing last boss. Don’t reward any rewards to players leaving early. Give all rewards to players joining late. Give Alliance in AV something to fight for. Buff the reward to the losing faction to motivate and reward them to fight for a win. Make the afk report kick players faster. Stuff like that, reasonable things that CAN be changed. The map can’t be changed. The map isn’t the main reason. And even if it where, it literally can’t be changed anyway. Stop talking about the map, it’s pointless and irrelevant.
Yea , like ive said , they stalled the game , they couldve summoned memelord at some point when horde was getting farmed at ibgy and ended the game , some points in that game are worth awhile to note down tbh. From alliance’s perspective that is.
As far as I know in that game they had something like 10-15 APES members. When Zulp got in it was already going on for >1h and he got in by queuing for AV 1 specifically. So yes if Alliance premade it’s perfectly possible to crush the Horde. Also it’s pretty telling that the only winning strategy that people have been able to come up for Alliance is defending until Horde give up. Doesn’t that show just how difficult it is to mount an offence as Alliance?
Well, maybe if those kind of players (like APES) would normally queue into AV more often, the alliance would have a better win rate? I mean, changing the map won’t fix that.
If turtling was somehow awarded we would see some real hard fought games. Alliance still would not win due unbreakable map advantages, but it would certainly take longer for horde to win. Would we return to the old 'days old Av" ?
Oh look, yet again alluding to the map being the underlying reason…
You see, the “skilled players” prefers easy wins. Means better rewards for a lower amount of effort, and faster as well. So as soon as premades got mitigated, they moved over to WSG and later on AB, whereas there’s no way to know the win rates on the server side, even though you claim there’s a statistic (even though you literally made it up out of thin air). Simple truth is, the win rates depends greatly depending on who you ask, in those other BGs.
It’s not like all of the tryhards quit AV when premades got mitigated, but it created a chain of events where the ones left queuing became so few that they were too thinly spread out, so the same ones that were excluded from premades while it was still possible and the “casual” premaders were the majority of the ones still queuing for AV on the Alliance side.
Which in turn created a feedback loop. They were too bad to win, so they quit trying, and then because they weren’t trying they lost even more so they quit queuing, and on and on it has continued ever since.
A better way to fix the endemic mindset issues is to just disable automatic matchmaking for teammates. Forces everyone to be a premade, all the time. The better ones will win, the worse ones will lose. Regardless of faction.
It even fixes bonus problems like bots, AFKers and so on.
Correct. The map is the underlying issue. Doesn’t make it the only one like you tried to claim I’m saying during your ridicolous lies that you have yet to appologise for.
By your “logic” Horde never had any skilled players because it was always more efficient to premade WSG and AB than it was to soloqueue AV for them. Which is kind of true. People that actually rank in AV are just about the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rankers since they’re only there because they can’t actually get a premade. But if the BG is unbalanced to your favour you don’t have to be very good to have a high win rate. And I won’t even lose my breath over your “suggestion” other than to say that sort of change would most likely make it so precisely 0 AVs happen (probably not even on the weekend).