Yeah the honor system is pure garbage we can agree on that.
A bad premade wouldn’t beat a decent horde pug in AV they would get stuck at ibgy.A good premade yeah for sure they will beat any horde pug.
The map is the issue though players don’t give up until ibgy doesn’t get hard capped and shgy gets soft capped trying to overcome shgy or ibgy as Allience is completely unfair and I don’t blame them for quitting at that point as you can’t simply come back from that.
The only time Allience can win is if they manage to hard cap with the majority at ibgy and manage to rush south before horde come back to defend and actually beat the horde push which happens in a minority of cases as usually cave spawners dwindle the Allience push quite easy.
It is a mentality thing… when people like yourself are going into AV thinking you’re going to lose every time…
That’s literally a defeatist mentality.
If they didn’t have the honor system in play, you’d find that the alliance would actually TRY to win instead of having a defeatist mentality.
What is your definition of “win” in this context? Do you mean, to kill the last boss before Horde no matter the time it takes or do you mean beat the last boss before horde within around 30min? Because I know that most alliance doesn’t conciser the first typ of win, a win.
Look at the map before you blame the players as every game has a different pool of players but same results I could care less about hph so I’m not the one giving up. You know if it was maybe 60% win rate you could maybe blame some games lost for that but not the land slide of almost 95% means u win 5 games in 100 games there is a problem and it’s not mentality
Do you think most alliance would conciser that a win if it took 1h-2h? Becasue that what it would take if horde defend, or alliance defend against horde.
Are you aware that we are fighting against our on faction on our realm for rank and not against the other faction at all? So in this context, do you REALLY think it’s a win even if it takes a long time?
This is what win means: “be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict).”
Call me me crazy but I don’t think most people consider it a win if they have to rank for a longer time. And there you have the reason for the 98% win ratio. Not the map. It’s not worth it to win slow for alliance when they have insta queue.
I mean I see your point for rankers the game doesn’t feel like a win but neither does the ranker losing in 30 mins stuck north of shgy feel like win especially if it’s before they could get lts for me and many others it sure does feel like a win regardless of the time. I get what you’re saying but most rankers do premades now since they cannot win AV to get decent honor at all and you aren’t garunteed to get the lts so it’s risky for a ranker but winning AV is definitely worth else the horde rankers would stay in they’re premades instead of getting there almost garunteed win in av.
Yes, this is my point. The good and motivated Alliance, in general, are not playing AV. But on Horde you have mostly motivated players who also don’t mind winning or losing after a long game when they have a long queue. Horde also got a lot of practice against premades.
Surely you must see that this is the reason for the HUGE imbalance and not some terrain details that suddenly, in Classic specifically, started to have a HUGE impact when it didn’t before. Classic have a unique situation in AV and a unique battlegroup system. Personally, I would start by removing that one huge region wide realm battlegroup that was never part of Vanilla retail (Im a bot biased though as Alliance outnumber horde on Earthshaker PvP realm).
What I am saying, My main point. Focus on the real issue. The queue and reward system. Those things are actually possible to tweak. The map is not.
This is classic though where you can get gobaled in large scale PvP and being a ranker doesn’t mean your good at the game it will have smaller impact on win rates than you think it doesn’t even mean your better geared it’s easy to pick up raid gear which is better than most PvP sets.
look don’t get me wrong I’m not saying the map is the only reason but it sure is the biggest contributing factor to the win rates then honor system is the second biggest contributing factor.
Do I think blizzard can balance this map nope not in classics lifetime but they can do some tweaks to maybe reduce the gap like stop cave respawns for example it won’t balance it because of shgy maybe add 60 second respawns at shgy for horde to close the distance for spawns at spgy but will still increase the win rate of Allience slightly which means more will queue.
Fixing the honor system I would agree to this wholeheartedly
You seriously can’t look at the map and see there is points where it’s not balanced or even read patch notes this is nothing to do with defeatest mentality.it would be the same as saying if Allience premades didn’t get fixed horde would have defeatest mentality because they expected to lose against the premade there is no difference here both situations are imbalanced
What do you expect honestly? Why would anyone join a game where they just simply cant win against the odds. You need a coordinated, geared, skilled, PUG team with dedicated healers and tanks, and a good leader with strategies just to defeat 10 horde kid that just aoeing one of the many chokepoints and instantly ress there if managed to get killed. Do you see it finally? Im truly happy people stopped joining AV after all the horde players didn’t even tried to do anything about all the imbalance and the backdoor abuses and some of you even defended it just to grief even more the other faction… You guys truly deserved it. Its weird that you guys still can’t understand that this game is a “multiplayer” game that only works if someone is on both sides but if you do everything to make the worst possible experience for the other guy then he will just leave, and congrats you just ruined the game for yourself too. This is what happened to Flamelash and a loads of other things in classic. Im not saying that you are responsible for it, but if something bad will happen and you could do something against but you still decide to do nothing and let it happen then its hard to have any empathy for you.
And yes my previous comment was meant for you for the same reason, the horde developed the defeatism mentality too I saw that a lot when they saw that we are a premade they just let us win, the only difference is it only took 2 months of crying and blizz nerfed the alliance’s only positive side of being the small faction but the alliance had no chance of getting any buff or horde side nerf to make it more equal even after half year so they just gave up.
Yeah, I agree there are some horde advantages, specifically at the GYs near mid. SHGY really sucks compared to IBGY, but moving in to the next GY, FWGY really sucks compared to SPGY, one of the best choke points in the map. Then we have the bases, I mean that bridge with 2 bunkers, man, it’s arguably the best choke point in the map.
So, Horde can hold at IBGY while alliance summons Ivus to break the hold. Alliance can hold at SPGY or the bridge while horde summons Lok’holar to break the hold. However, this makes the games long, and there’s no time for that if you want efficient honor and have short queue times. Basically what Bodiesan is saying so I’m not going to repeat it.
No, the map is nowhere near that imbalanced. Yeah I agree IBGY is way better than SHGY, but you have other points where you can defend as alliance just like the horde does, you just don’t do it.
Look, the crap pugs were losing 95% while the premades were winning 95%, then the premades couldn’t go anymore so they switched to WSG/AB. Nothing really changed on the horde side so the crap alliance pugs kept on losing. There was a small increase in the alliance pug win rate for a while there until the last alliance rankers realized that with instant queues AV sucks for honor…
Nah, in many games I played, the horde actually tried to defend against premades, but yeah there were some ppl who would say “just let them win”.
The backdoor issue got fixed btw, and I’m not against anything here really. Sure change some of the problems with the map or even switch the spawns so the alliance has the advantages. It’s not going to fix the problem with who joins AV, it’s not going to be efficient for honor on alliance unless queue times for WSG/AB would increase. If horde queues went down so horde rankers stopped joining (since they fall behind if they don’t go WSG/AB at that point) that would also help your win rate.
Are you unable to read? i can’t believe that comment has 5 upvotes. I state the reason is the que length, and you bring up premades??? The horde had long ques often over an hour even back then, so with an hour long que it always make sense to max out your honor. Vs apes premades the strategy was often to kill as many npc’s as possible to max out honor.
Imagine you have instant ques, losing a game in say 15mins for 1.5k honor/game is 6k honor/hour, but winning a game that takes you an hour to win is 4/5k honor/hour. (if you can lose faster even better)
For horde when they get an extra 2 hour que, the question then becomes 1.5k honor every 2 hours, and 15 mins, vs 4-5k honor every 3 hours. It’s pretty easy to see that the difference is way way more extreme for the horde. Especially when you factor in how easy losing is.
For the horde honor grinders back in the day getting a premade was a blow, as they had spent an hour to que into, and they were going to get as much honor as they possible could after that que. For alliance, they can instantly lose and get in another game quickly. That is why, which is whats posted in the OP.
the horde have very fast ques in AB/WSG, and they allow premades. hard to compare.
You must also understand that my original argument was not saying this was the only reason, but this was a big part of it.
Think of all the games you’ve ever played. I’m sure they’ve occasionally had some really bad maps, and by most standards a bad map is like 60-70% win chance for 1 spawn vs another. I have never heard of another game that has achieved a 99% win rate for 1 side. The map would have to be impossibly imbalanced for that alone to be the case.
i’m saying this is a big factor in the reason why. i mean in vanilla nax patch, the horde did not win av 99% of the time. You can say they didn’t know how to play and what not, but i think there is more to it than you think. you want a single explanation for the entire problem. when it doesn’t exist
