Im actually bringing a lot of value by providing insight into facts from external sources much more reliable than a narcissist like you.
And no, as long as you keep trying to gaslight and manipulate the narrative of the current 10.0.7 situation of the rogue, I will stay here and answer that voice with facts, logic and reason.
Fair.
I think that ship has sailed a long time ago- Designing the game around support specs and niche roles is not something that will ever come back to this game, and frankly it probably shouldn’t.
The game is moving ever more toward a solo-player experience with group content as a sidenote (which I think is fine), so it means that all classes need to be able to perform close to as optimally as possible in all situations.
This does not mean we need or even want to homogenize classes. I think a healthy middle ground can be found. For all the faults WoD gets as an expansion, the class design was quite solid in that one. All classes were able to perform more or less on their own, but each spec still had their own mechanical fluff and curiosities (gladiator stance warriors, ember tap locks, etc).
This is however something I just do not agree on. First, stealth is, as said, a reward on it’s own. It is probably one of the best defensive and offensive utility ability ability in the game.
As said, it guarantees you a first strike, or first action. Be it sapping one teammate and taking out the other or w/e, the possibilities are endless. That is very much a thing that matches the fantasy of stalking and ambushing people, and that is very much true to this date.
What it does not and should not guarantee you is a clean kill without consequences, so long as you get the first blow. That is not okay. If you reduce those interactions to always turn in the rogues favour, you remove counterplay potential and second wind’s from the opponent.
Equally, I believe it is very healthy for the game that some classes and specs are weak to the others. For example, all cloth casters are notoriously susceptible to hunters, and have been for most of their existence (the ranged variations, anyway). In turn, hunters are relatively weak to classes with high uptime and high burst damage, since they lack proper defensives outside their mobility.
The fact that Rogue struggles against classes like warriors, paladins and death knights seems completely fair and in line with their fantasy. They are a rat class (no insult intended) that like to play dirty, and if they can’t take out their opponent in one go, then they are going to have a bad time. That’s how it should be. Not all of rogue’s prey are “gazelles”.
Just because you are not guaranteed a kill or a win in an 1v1 situation as a rogue does not make stealth or ambushing people useless- That is still going to be an edge they can’t take away from you, it just means that that bonus is less significant than it is against classes like mages or priests, for example.
Oh there are plenty gazelles in the S-tier. Mages who just today won AWC, Destro locks (same as the former), BM hunter (despite being extremely strong right now, it is not strong for it’s defensives). Even WW was there before the damage nerfs.
But I do agree with the principle that there is a distressing lack of counterplay options against multiple classes. Too many abilities that do too many things and too many utilities baked into rotational abilities.
As far as I understand, rogues still make short work of hunters, demon hunters, monks, mages (in some cases), and they are also quite effective against warlocks and priests.
Now, the reason why they can’t do that RN is because for every one of those classes there’s about 8 ret paladins and 4 arms warriors to give you a bad time any time you so much as dare stepping out of stealth.
As said, I doubt we will agree on this but consider this:
I will simply agree to disagree, because I think Stealth is anything but weak in current meta.
True, that is why the Rogue relies more on the team in fights than the other classes do. In return, rogue is the only melee class capable of doing a shadowstep into kick into healer and still make it back in time to do a smokebomb kidney shot into the kill target.
And that is also why the Rogue spent the entire last expansion disengaging from fights- To the point with all the training wheels attached in the form of cloaked in shadows and other passives and active abilities that it was impossible even for classes like hunters with hunter’s mark to keep them permanently in combat.
Except that, the enemy defender will have to burn his/her trinket on sap if they want to stop your flag capture attempt, and if they do so, you can blind them. And even if that fails, you can always just vanish and try again, and even if the help arrives, you will have tied 1-2x players to come and force you off the flag.
Consider this from the opposite perspective. If a Warrior wants to go and take that same flag, whoever is defending the flag can just tell his friends before the fight even starts that there is a warrior coming in to take the flag, which means that the warrior is on the clock the second he is seen, whereas the rogue is from the moment he lands sap. That is quite a big advantage.
I think having a fair chance or a slight advantage against -some- classes is absolutely fine. That goes for all classes. And right now, that is achieved.
I think the major distinction with hybrids from normal classes in these days is that they can heal / help others in abundance compared to non-hybrids. Not the difference in damage.
I think Survival Hunter and Rogue are in many ways very similar- The only difference being that Rogue is more burst damage oriented and has more hard offensive utility, whereas survival hunter is more focused on positioning, area denial and trapping.
Defensively they are also very similar, although hunter has the luxury that even though once the defensives are spent, it has the mobility and area denial capacity to keep itself going just a little longer against some comps.
Rogue on the other hand has objectively better defensives, but in return once those defensives are gone, that’s it. And that, as far as I know, has always been the case with rogues.
If you ask me I would not change a thing about rogues RN, I would simply nerf the overperforming specs and that’d be that.
It is if the specc is lethal 1v1. Nobody fears the resto druid.
I agree when assa/outlaw get a damage buff. Currently, the damage is so low that ive seen MM hunters just not bother with kiting because they know they will win the dmg race. But most of these classes are strong in tournament play but neglected in the ladder. Sure I would love to make life a living hell for a destro lock or a BM hunter, but i see them so rarely. Everyone plays demo, mm, ret, arms and fistweaver in 10.0.7
No:
My point here is that rogue is currently lacking damage. Because of this reason, most classes now will be able to bully the rogue in 1v1. We might be able to do the steal trick for flags, but we otherwise struggle to do meaningful work. Thus, rogues can no longer provide the assassination strategy of solo defenders in bgs unless the opponent is playing one of the significantly worse speccs or is undergeared.
I agree except for one part; that it is currently achieved. As of 10.0.7, outlaw/assa have too low dmg to have that versus the top 50% speccs given equal gear. But I completely agree that we should be weak to some classes and strong against others.
I have 2 lvl 70 rogues and 2 lvl 70 hunters all at max conquest gear (surv, surv, assa, outlaw) and in 10.0.7 because of the nerfed damage of the rogue (especially outlaw, but assa too), it is not like that. Perhaps in theory, but on my surv hunters I absolutely wreck face. The damage is not even comparable, my surv hunter burst absurd amounts while also maintaining a very high sustained dmg, one that rogues just cannot follow currently. And the comparison is one I agree with because survs are also much better now at 100-0 1v1 from stealth than a 10.0.7 rogue.
I agree. I think Rogues are rather fine in terms of design, the sole reason why there are weak-ish right now is that the meta is really hostile for them. I’d slightly alter the way Assassination deals damage - too mucg passive DoT damage, too little direct damage for my personal taste so you don’t have much impact on your own stuns - but overall, the class doesn’t really need buffs, or very slight ones, especially Outlaw. What it really needs is for other specs to be brought down to earth.
Wrong, you are trying to support your opinion and take any source for it that might help you making people believe you, denying every other source that might come to another conclusion.
Rogue was broken for decades. Rogue not being great now doesn’t change that fact! We even saw rogues competing in the in the AWC and tonight one won the tournament, even though he could have played other melees he also got r1 titles with.
But yeah, skilled capped said something you liked to hear, because this way you can blame the meta and not yourself. That is very scientific of course.
Are rogues still based around cheap shot, kidney shot, bleedings, poisons, blind, sap, evasion, cloak, vanish, step and so on? I guess it hasn’t changed much in their broken class design!
It also seems like you guys don’t get what I want to express. I LOVE IT to not see rogues every single 3s game or shuffle lobby. That is how it should be for the next decade to compensate us for the frustration that they had too much fun in the past decades! Even though it became a quite pink lately, that is still better than this urine yellow!
And no, I don’t want them to be in the trash tier. I am perfectly fine with rogue in C tier! If they are currently in B tier, there is still more to nerf though! 
The epic saga of Lillydot and his gaslighting continues. You might struggle with remembering anything past 2 posts ago, but we have already been here before, and countless people including me have already posted several sources of external proof that everything you are saying is nothing but your own personal agenda of destroying the class you hate.
Source is here: Can you nerf these classes please? . Let me know if I need to quote each post for you to remember.
Was, is not. The difference here is that whatever state any class has been previously is not an excuse for neglecting a class now. This is an absurd request to make. By that logic, all classes have been broken at any certain moment since 2004, and so we should nerf all classes! And no, rogue has not been broken for decades, they have had their ups and downs, just like all other classes.
And a lot of other sources too. And it is not that they are saying something I like, it is that external sources and countless people on this forum is saying the same thing, which goes against your subjective and heavily biased opinion. You are free to look through this forum for posts made by me. If you do so, you can see that there are plenty of times were I agree that I was wrong and openly admit to it, because external data is important. Here, let me find an example for you, so you can see how adults react when they are proven wrong:
But this time is not one of them. This time, plenty of external sources and people on this forum has shot your manipulation down with facts.
It might be that the game will balance itself if the top 1/3rd of speccs are brought down. And I would be willing to try this to see if it is enough. Since SkillCapped has mentioned that B tier is the baseline, then assa and sub dont need a buff as of 10.0.7 by the definition of SkillCapped, but outlaw does as it was C tier if I remember. So SkillCapped seems to agree with you here!
My personal opinion, but I might be completely wrong on my guess, is that I would make these changes beyond nerfing the strongest classes.
Let me know what you think about these changes and why you might disagree with any of them 
I too would love for classes to have more uniqueness to them again.
I would love if stances played a more significant role for warriors. Also glad stance.
I would love it if all Hunter abilities (including aimed shot) were castable on the move, survival was back to being ranged and pets had talent trees. In return, hunters would have deadzone again. You could give a melee hunter as a talent option similar to Glad Stance to BM hunters.
I would love it if druids spent more time shapeshifting with more defensive and offensive utility tied behind each form. To perform optimally, you would wsnt to swap forms often.
And so on.
But that game design won’t be coming back, unfortunately.
If i recall right cloak of shadow was added to the game a fix for vanish breaking with dots… and now it’s a complete 100% immunity that can’t be dispelled…
I’m fine with it if we finally can dispel cloak =)
I rather not have this immunity to not make it dispelable.
My personal opinion is that this CoS buff hits wrong. Its improving something we are already good at without addressing the issues we currently have.
This I’d actually agree with. It’s on point.
Recent SkillCapped videos also agrees with Shadenox, so it seems to be the closest to what most sources say.
Probably also a good idea to not buff Rogue’s while you nerf the top tier classes, so that the Rogue performance can be monitored further.
You all should enjoy a wine
I personally think Deathmark (and Vendetta previously) is bad design in the current design of the game. Basically every class doesn’t have an offensive that people can just remove. The fact as well that all our offensives affect bleeds, bleeds are most of our damage and exsanguinate had to go from 45s to 3m just seems like they are overall badly designed imo.
ironically when Assa is good, I also despise how broken NE is for Assa compared to every other race in the game.
AWC is clearly a terrible indiciator but Whaazz basically never used Deathmark as well when he played (think he used it like twice?)
But they include you? So you’ve had your fun on this alleged 3 times Glad Rogue(show it to us), but new players should be punished for you having frustrated other players in the past? Rogue in AWC doesn’t prove anything. Like I said in an earlier post, pro players like Whaaz, Shadenox and Pikaboo can make the class work even at a disadvantage. However, if an avg player needs a 2200mmr effort to win at 1600 something is wrong. This I say as an example. There’s solo shuffle without communication to consider aswell. Does the current iteration of an 1800 Subtlety in solo shuffle speak more about individual skill level than a past OP state rogue in a team setting with communication, like you’re flaunting? Who knows. Might not be as far away as you’d imagine.
Do we not allow certain classes to participate in that content? Anyway, if a 3500 player can cause hell with a certain class it doesn’t mean the 95% of the rest should be punished. In a game like DOTA2 Invoker’s balanced around his basic kit. On top of that, if you’re a really good player and can use his whole kit, you can wreak absolute havoc. This gives you a reason to pick him for fun aswell as a reason to research and get better with him. He’s not rendered useless because of potential at top 1% rating. People have found it fun trying to crack the code of certain comps aswell. You as this alleged Glad rogue you are should find that very easy and worry about other comps instead of spending large amounts of time weekly asking for an absolutely unsustainable state for rogues.
You’ve said this over and over. We’ve responded. Every other person on here, before you come spewing crap, is discussing how to evenly balance the classes without homogenizing the gameplay even further.
I mostly agree
Not sure if you mean sustain, but I’m fine with our out of Shadow Dance state, but I’d like for it to chunk more in goes with Evis and Shadowstrike and being able to opt out of Sec Tech completely. I dislike relying on Rupture with Replicating Shadows for sustain, especially since we can’t brawl but have to unless spending the combo points from our burst window. I don’t like Shadowed Finishers, it could rather be reworked to a flat Evis buff or Evis dealing 100% Shadow but no additional damage. I don’t know what the number would have to be. I want the current state of Sec Tech as an option just because I want options. I’ve been advocating for the return of talent trees for years only to find myself with less options on many classes. But all in all, I agree with Cazzette’s post in my Sub Rogue thread.
Completely agree, I dislike that I see 20k Garrote crits compared to 7.5k Mutilates. I don’t feel much impact from the rotation itself, the reponse is mostly delayed in dots. Some rearrangement of the damage would be great. I saw Atahalni mention in the Stealth discussion open up with bleeds and run pillar, which I don’t think is always that free, but anyhow, it would make that much less impactful. Also here I would advocate more options in the talent tree. Like in Shadowlands we had Sepsis for more cheese plays and Bone Spike for sustain.
This I don’t think would work anymore with the changes coming in 10.1. Sap’s already getting 2 sec nerf aswell as being uniquely on opener in that you can’t Blind > Sap anymore. So with a nerf to speed, I think this could potentially make Sap a rare sight.
I think the problem with sub is that in DF they have always been at either subpar dmg or capable of reaching crazy burst windows by stacking. I want to heavily reduce the stacking for crazy burst windows such that the core mechanics of the class are more solid.
While I understand why some people ask for this, I don’t think this is any good. The game is way too fast, and every single class is way too mobile for this to work. When CPs were target locked people didn’t die in 3s to one person with 1min CDs, and people didn’t have 17 teleports alongside 32 dashes so it wasn’t horrible to primarily go for one target. Right now people can dance around you so easily that you’d be useless, because hitting their friend when they go away would reset your CPs so people would just hit Rogue for 3 globals, mess around while the teammate stays in, and the Rogue could only get absolutely destroyed without hitting back by the teammate (imagine warrior/ret), pr reset CPs.
The “behind the target” this is cool, as it used to be one of the prime mechanic of Sub when it wasn’t a braindead spec. I wonder how it would fit in the game right now as, same problem, people are overly mobile, but it could maybe be nice. But then other classes also need to get a bit more depth that obly allows them to do max damage while using their brains, otherwise it would only widen the gap between Rogue and, say, RET.
Hehe please no.
Cloak was always the same as it is now, only it had lower cooldown for the longest time and was only increased to 2min with a recent expansion.
Yes, I don’t quite like Deathmark. To me it would be part of the things that should change if we made Assa deal less DoT damage and more direct damage. Give Vendetta back ! Or give a similar CD that increase other stuff than DoTs.
Yes. When facing Preservation it is a better play to not use it at all, because if you do he gets to dispel it so you lose more damage than if you didn’t use it, but then he also gets to use his bleed dispel 1min later on cooldown (as it’ll still be ready for the next DM then) and that really hurts your overall pressure. Meanwhile if you don’t press it, he never dispels. Amazing design right. I wish we could dispel wings hm.
The highroll !
Rogues are not S tier for the first time in 18 years and they loose their minds. welcome to the gutter where the rest of us plebs have been living the last decade.
if it were for me they can make rogue unplayable. i woulndt shed a single tear if i will never see a rogue again in my life
A black part in my WoW history.
Nobody asked you to.
That might be your perspective, but ever thought about that some people might think you and all the other pitiful rogue defender are spewing the crap here?
It does prove that the class can compete on the top level. Isn’t that enough? If you can’t handle your class, is that really a topic to discuss or should you just pick another class then? Isn’t balance meant that classes are around the same on ALL skill levels?
I mean, the class changes I think about would barely affect the 95% you are talking about, as they can’t get the maximum out of the class anyways, so what is the issue?
I do that too, but you just don’t get it. I am saying that rogue is broken because its class design is broken. As long as they don’t fix it, the class can’t be balanced.
The devs think its fine to just balance classes around damage, tank and defensives but they leave cc, offensive tools like healing reduction and comp balance alone, which are as important!
That is what they need to change or better to extend! CC and offensive tools have to be constantly put to the test and they have to start working on the comp balance too, not specifically on the class strength.