I can say why they kill surv in legion, because in another time he
would be god of keys. new surv ofc cancer(
All I have to say is this. If blizzard at the very LEAST do not make Mongoose Bite and it’s Mongoose Fury mechanic baseline, you will have all the evidence that blizzard did not look at a single complaint about SV as a melee spec, let alone consider reverting it to range.
At this point, as much as I would prefer it to be range, I could settle for it being stuck as melee, so long as it starts to make some sense. Especially with it being some sort of hybrid. One of my biggest gripes is its slow. The slow we have is a THIRD of our base resource bar, is only melee range and does nothing but slow at a standard 50%, on the GCD. I know some of you will scoff at someone complaining about that, but to me it is the epitome of rushed design. It seems it was a case of “Oh don,t they need a slow? Oh we can give them this” and that was it, we got a 30 focus wing clip, on the gcd, melee range, 50%. It just ticks me off, especially when compared to any other snare in game.
Our pet is doesn’t provide anything useful, it’s a hindrince to the playstyle and offers nothing useful, apart from being designed to be more mandatory for SV than for BM. Horrible design choice. As a whole, for hunters pets are not cutting it for usefullness as they used to. I remember in TBC, having monkey stun. So basicaly you had control over your pet abilities, meaning you could use them while unable to use your hunter i.e during stuns, CC in general. If a rogue cheaped you and was going to kidney you, you could break that chain with a good monkey stun and either gain distance or force a trinket so he would sit in any CC you want to land after.
That was good design. Your pet being out served a grander purpose for you rather than just hindering you and being mandatory. As it stands right now, as SV you need it for Burst, Resource gain, Freedom, and damage reduction. Which is all fine, but all could be done without the pet. It doesn’t provide us with anything that really helps and rather pigeon holes us into depending on it for anything we do.
As a DK or Lock, I could stun a chaos bolt while being CC’d, I could spell lock a Greater Pyro while stunned, I could even seduce a healer as lock to save a healer under pressure. As hunter, THE pet class, I can… Watch. Like I said, our pets are simply a bane, this is especially true as SV. No thought was really put into the design of the spec, but people made it work and are OK with it. I believe there is a lot of work to do on this spec.
You are right, I’m totally on your side on this.
All I’m trying to say is that in Vanilla you could make up some wierd build/playstyle due to “fun factor” of it.
Like a more melee oriented Surv/BM in your face type of style IF you wanted, that doesnt mean it was an optimal build, but you kinda had the freedom to play around more than now.
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(Edit: Sorry, post grew to the lengthier side again:/ )
This is true yes.
I tend to bring up two expressions in cases like this, those being “method of play” (what you choose in terms of talents/what abilities you decide to use during combat, as an example).
And, “intent of design” (the full toolkit available to you and the core focus intended by it, no matter what specific playstyle you choose to opt into).
If your “method of play(ing)” is not in line with the “intended design” for the class/spec then there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just how you choose to play the game. And you’re free to play it however you want to.
The thing here is that many players when in arguments in regards to past RSV or the modern MSV, they tend to bring up old SV(pre RSV, the Vanilla/BC version that did not include Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, etc.) as an argument for why replacing RSV with MSV was justified. Saying that SV was a melee spec in the past.
Which it was not.
If they chose to play as a melee hunter back in Vanilla/BC, ignoring the majority of their toolkit, and the intended design of the class, that was their choice. Nothing wrong with that.
But that should not be used as an argument for why it was justified to remove RSV. Because prior to Legion, there was only RSV, there was never a MSV(by “intended design”).
Sure, prior to WotLK we did not have Explosive Shot or Black Arrow etc. but despite that, if you went full into SV back then, it was still a design with an intended focus on ranged combat.
I guess the biggest conflict in these discussions stems from the above. What people associated SV with in the past.
And, just as a reminder, despite my opinion towards what they did to RSV, I do believe that a melee option for the class holds merit. We have archetypes/fantasies in the game portraying hunters that focus mainly on melee combat. And despite what the class has been about in the past, this allows for a specialization to focus on melee combat as well.
The only problem I have with this is that they(devs) decided to remove a unique ranged playstyle/spec in order to “make room” for this new melee option. Even though that wasn’t a necessary thing to do. Even though the majority of current players(at the time) had no interest in the implementation of a melee hunter spec, but preferred ranged options.
I love the dedication and time you put into your posts Briz. I’m not here to argue with you as there is nothing to argue about.
Thank you for the info 
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<3
Never thought you were. 
Found a thread in the GD asking what people would like to see in Shadowlands/the future.
I usually just post the normal stuff in threads like that. As, the more it’s voiced, the better IMO.
Feel free to chip in with your own suggestions(not just aimed at Bowlow).
#Things you'd like to see return!
For some reason, this particular thread got a Blue response. Doesn’t mean much, but hey, better than nothing! At least we know that they are reading it.
My own reply in that thread:
#Things you'd like to see return! - #102 by Briz-zenedar
Btw, if you disagree with my suggestions for some reason, feel free to get back to me as to why, or what you would want to see instead/in addition to it.
Stop these threads. You have 2/3 ranged specs as hunter, ppl have always wanted a melee hunter spec, they should have made it a dual wielding spec though, similar to rogues but less stealthy. In other rp games hunter and rogue is basically the same class with different specializations, they should take that as insipiration for the survival spec.
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Melee Hunter in Classic has the same problems that melee Hunter in BFA has (sort of). You have 1 melee ability, Raptor Strike, which is on a 6-sec CD. If you are raiding or running dungeons Mongoose Bite and Counterattack are almost useless as both abilities will hardly proc due to you not being hit much. So you are relying on 1 melee ability much like in BFA, which is also Raptor Strike / Mongoose Bite (depending on talent choice).
Problem?
I didnt know we had a problems, SV hunter in my time as an active player had no big issue running M+
What I’ve seen is that the general population just wants META and nothihng else. Sorry to say, but bring the player nor the class.
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Hello,
Go look logs of SVs in EP on WarcraftLogs. SVs are ok in this tier.
For the rest, it is just a sentimental factor. There was complaints when SV went melee but now that he is, it seems that those complaints vanished.
I remember the time we played with explosive shot and that was super fun but, at the moment, the funniest spec for hunter is still SV. Obviously, that is just a personal opinion.
It is super funny when you go high on parses or top dps with your guild and everyone is amazed. They tend to forgot that SV can bring high dps if well geared.
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They are still here, to say the least.
The very thread/topic we’re in now is one example.
Though I prefer if it could be done as a 4th spec option instead of a repeat of past mistakes of removing existing playstyles. Like they did with RSV.
All they can do from here, is make SV a little more polished. Fix the kinks in the spec.
For ranged, they have to really work on MM at this point. It’s the only savings grace they have. Make MM more mobile and fix talents so they make sense. It doesn’t have to be MM with a possible change of talents so it is like old RSV. Instead they should solely focus on MM being a good, adaptable and mobile ranged spec.
Serious as f*ck. but also realistic enough that it wont happen, one can dream though. MM and ranged surv were pretty much carbon copies of each other with 2-3 abilities with different names but functioned more similarly than combat and assassination or arms or fury. There is extremly little you can do do diversify a specc that shoots arrows/bullets. no diverse visual combat like you can with melee with different swings. who cares one shot is elemental instead of physical? it looks the same, does the same thing and you click the same button. Having BM beeing more like rexxar, while survival is more likewhite lion in warhammer, would promote TRUE diversity. But another ranged plonking specc taht does essentially the same as mm? why? nostalgic reasons? not good enough.
My man, you can diversify as much as you can with melee specs lol, you just don’t like ranged combat or the hunter class in general. What you say about bows etcc works for melee too lol who cares from what angle you swing your sword? It lOoKs ThE sAmE. If you oh so like melee combat and want melee hunters, wow is probably not the game for you, you are lucky they decided to butcher the class and delete a specc to make space for melee, but anything more then this would just demonstrate how out of touch they would be. Also we have like 13 melee specs and 11 ranged ones, of all this literally ONE focuses on bows (MM), there is another that uses a bow but doesn’t focus on it (BM) and then you have every flavour of melee one handed/two handed combat you can dream of, you can’t tell me in your brain it would make sense to remove ANOTHER ranged spec that uses a bow to add another unpopular melee option, you are just heavily biased lmao.
Also this is literally the same thing, you say we don’t need specs but then say we need a class, guess what, a class is 2 to three specs put together on a character. Like at least don’t speak against yourself, or explain yourself better please, because this is what i got from this.
Mate, you gotta change your name from Shaile to Shill…
Stop while you’re behind. Just stop.
Would agree with this.
I seriously doubt that it will. OR at least, I hope that it won’t.
Considering this class is the only one that provides us with a way to fight at range while using actual weapons and not spells. Only leaving MM as the sole fantasy for this…especially when there are currently 13 different specs in the game that focus on the use of melee weapons. And you want even more? At the cost of ranged weapon specs?
Just, NO.
Not even sure how you came to this conclusion when comparing the two specializations. But no matter, it’s incorrect.
Fair enough if you determine spec diversity mostly by how many abilities you switch on your action bars. But that does not serve as a basis for a valid argument of “the specs were the same”.
There’s a lot more to it than that.
Thematic design, aesthetics/visuals as well as mechanical interactions matters.
MM was a spec with a focus on hardcasting and about abilities that dealt high instant damage once cast. Providing a playstyle with high intended burst potential.
RSV on the other hand, focused on DoT. And, through that, consistency.
Very little of that spec was about actually casting abilities and none of which required you to stand still. Not to mention the aspect of enhancing traps. Something MM never did.
You’re free to have your opinion and your preferences as to what elements of class/spec design which you care about. But as I said earlier, if you want a valid basis for such an argument, you have to take all aspects of the design into consideration. Not just the ones you care about.
But yeah, as for the future and a potential modern version of RSV. This, is what it could look like/be about:
Again, fair enough, you don’t care about many aspects of the design. But I can guarantee that if you take all of them into account, the suggested concept would be nothing like current MM(or BM, or MSV).
The only survival iteration that should be reverted to is the legion one because the current survival is just a 1-button raptor strike spec.
I wish they’d have given Legion SV more time instead of overhauling the spec one expansion later. It had its flaws sure but felt a hell of a lot better as a melee spec than BFA version to me. There is very little of the current iteration that I find appealing in that the only ability I would keep is the bomb and its corresponding talent.
wrong ofc. there is one way to pull the trigger on a gun, one way to release the hinge on a xbow and one way to let go of the arrow on a bow. but the diversity of how you can swing a melee weapon in a dance? endless. this is not an opinion. its a fact, treat it as such.
skipped most of the useless assumptions that were wrong anyway.
thats not how diversity works. doesnt matter what OTHER classes there are. the only thing that matters is the class itself and how big the diversity it has among its 3 specializations. nothing else. i already agreed that there are too few ranged physical damage classes. its a moot point. we got too few mail classes too but alas. not the point. and no, class is NOT the same thing as specialization, neither literally nor figuratively. we need diversity among our specializations, we got quite good in legion with full melee SV, worse now with this retarded hybrid range/melee. if you dont understand simple train of thoughts just give me a headsup and ill explain even more simpler.
the irony. its glorious.