Yeah lets bring back the old messy crap spec so the few nostalgic 398 ilvl mains can collect toys and mounts as BM again.
(Up to patch 1.7 )No it was not, the Survival tree was about improved traps and increased melee abilities.
(TL;DR further down)
Keep in mind that this old talent tree/category, no matter what you chose in terms of talents, it did not change the default abilities found in your toolkit.
Even if you picked everything possible which improved your damaging abilities(that were melee-based), this would not take away the fact that you still had your baseline ranged abilities which you would do well to use whenever possible.
And, also remember that, by design back then, the only reason we had those talents(that improved melee-capabilities) was for when we ended up being to close to an enemy to rely on ranged abilities. As in, certain types of content(read: PvP), maintaining distance to an enemy 100% of the time, was difficult, to say the least.
This naturally meant that talent options which allowed for us to be stronger, even when forced into melee-combat, was for the sake of survival. It was not there to define the very core of our playstyle. Those talents weren’t there to make us give up the default core that was based on ranged abilities, using a ranged weapon.
Apart from the above, we also had several talents based in that tree, which were purely focused on improving base defensive elements. Such as:
Deterrence - ability/CD which increased dodge/parry chance.
Deflection - increased chance to parry incoming attacks.
Lightning Reflexes - increased chance to dodge incoming attacks.
And like you said, talents focusing on our traps in various ways.
TL;DR:
You’re right that the old talent tree/category did include some talents which somehow focused on improving your melee-capabilities. But what he actually meant, was that nothing back then, or at any point prior to Legion, allowed for enough choices to be made so that you would, as a hunter, be a melee-fighter over using a ranged weapon, by design.
Some players back then did choose to only make use of melee-abilities, this is also true. Although, they were few in numbers, and they did this even though the design itself did not intend for this to be a viable playstyle.
Why did they do so? Because it was possible…
When they introduced actual specializations, all that meant was that the intended design was becoming more apparent as to what we were supposed to focus on.
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no. you already have 2 speccs to choose from thats ranged. TBH, they should make BM melee too and leave marksman as the ranged hunter and survival and beastmaster as melee hunters, if fits thematically alot better anyway. then please release dark ranger as a new class because what we sorely lack is physical ranged CLASSES. not speccs.
oof /10 chars
Can’t tell if you’re serious or not.
And yes, we ARE lacking ranged physical dmg specs(or just in general, lacking ranged specs using a weapon).
He must be trolling, i mean, he can’t be serious…right…? RIGHT??
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I can say why they kill surv in legion, because in another time he
would be god of keys. new surv ofc cancer(
All I have to say is this. If blizzard at the very LEAST do not make Mongoose Bite and it’s Mongoose Fury mechanic baseline, you will have all the evidence that blizzard did not look at a single complaint about SV as a melee spec, let alone consider reverting it to range.
At this point, as much as I would prefer it to be range, I could settle for it being stuck as melee, so long as it starts to make some sense. Especially with it being some sort of hybrid. One of my biggest gripes is its slow. The slow we have is a THIRD of our base resource bar, is only melee range and does nothing but slow at a standard 50%, on the GCD. I know some of you will scoff at someone complaining about that, but to me it is the epitome of rushed design. It seems it was a case of “Oh don,t they need a slow? Oh we can give them this” and that was it, we got a 30 focus wing clip, on the gcd, melee range, 50%. It just ticks me off, especially when compared to any other snare in game.
Our pet is doesn’t provide anything useful, it’s a hindrince to the playstyle and offers nothing useful, apart from being designed to be more mandatory for SV than for BM. Horrible design choice. As a whole, for hunters pets are not cutting it for usefullness as they used to. I remember in TBC, having monkey stun. So basicaly you had control over your pet abilities, meaning you could use them while unable to use your hunter i.e during stuns, CC in general. If a rogue cheaped you and was going to kidney you, you could break that chain with a good monkey stun and either gain distance or force a trinket so he would sit in any CC you want to land after.
That was good design. Your pet being out served a grander purpose for you rather than just hindering you and being mandatory. As it stands right now, as SV you need it for Burst, Resource gain, Freedom, and damage reduction. Which is all fine, but all could be done without the pet. It doesn’t provide us with anything that really helps and rather pigeon holes us into depending on it for anything we do.
As a DK or Lock, I could stun a chaos bolt while being CC’d, I could spell lock a Greater Pyro while stunned, I could even seduce a healer as lock to save a healer under pressure. As hunter, THE pet class, I can… Watch. Like I said, our pets are simply a bane, this is especially true as SV. No thought was really put into the design of the spec, but people made it work and are OK with it. I believe there is a lot of work to do on this spec.
You are right, I’m totally on your side on this.
All I’m trying to say is that in Vanilla you could make up some wierd build/playstyle due to “fun factor” of it.
Like a more melee oriented Surv/BM in your face type of style IF you wanted, that doesnt mean it was an optimal build, but you kinda had the freedom to play around more than now.
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(Edit: Sorry, post grew to the lengthier side again:/ )
This is true yes.
I tend to bring up two expressions in cases like this, those being “method of play” (what you choose in terms of talents/what abilities you decide to use during combat, as an example).
And, “intent of design” (the full toolkit available to you and the core focus intended by it, no matter what specific playstyle you choose to opt into).
If your “method of play(ing)” is not in line with the “intended design” for the class/spec then there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just how you choose to play the game. And you’re free to play it however you want to.
The thing here is that many players when in arguments in regards to past RSV or the modern MSV, they tend to bring up old SV(pre RSV, the Vanilla/BC version that did not include Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, etc.) as an argument for why replacing RSV with MSV was justified. Saying that SV was a melee spec in the past.
Which it was not.
If they chose to play as a melee hunter back in Vanilla/BC, ignoring the majority of their toolkit, and the intended design of the class, that was their choice. Nothing wrong with that.
But that should not be used as an argument for why it was justified to remove RSV. Because prior to Legion, there was only RSV, there was never a MSV(by “intended design”).
Sure, prior to WotLK we did not have Explosive Shot or Black Arrow etc. but despite that, if you went full into SV back then, it was still a design with an intended focus on ranged combat.
I guess the biggest conflict in these discussions stems from the above. What people associated SV with in the past.
And, just as a reminder, despite my opinion towards what they did to RSV, I do believe that a melee option for the class holds merit. We have archetypes/fantasies in the game portraying hunters that focus mainly on melee combat. And despite what the class has been about in the past, this allows for a specialization to focus on melee combat as well.
The only problem I have with this is that they(devs) decided to remove a unique ranged playstyle/spec in order to “make room” for this new melee option. Even though that wasn’t a necessary thing to do. Even though the majority of current players(at the time) had no interest in the implementation of a melee hunter spec, but preferred ranged options.
I love the dedication and time you put into your posts Briz. I’m not here to argue with you as there is nothing to argue about.
Thank you for the info 
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<3
Never thought you were. 
Found a thread in the GD asking what people would like to see in Shadowlands/the future.
I usually just post the normal stuff in threads like that. As, the more it’s voiced, the better IMO.
Feel free to chip in with your own suggestions(not just aimed at Bowlow).
#Things you'd like to see return!
For some reason, this particular thread got a Blue response. Doesn’t mean much, but hey, better than nothing! At least we know that they are reading it.
My own reply in that thread:
#Things you'd like to see return! - #102 by Briz-zenedar
Btw, if you disagree with my suggestions for some reason, feel free to get back to me as to why, or what you would want to see instead/in addition to it.
Stop these threads. You have 2/3 ranged specs as hunter, ppl have always wanted a melee hunter spec, they should have made it a dual wielding spec though, similar to rogues but less stealthy. In other rp games hunter and rogue is basically the same class with different specializations, they should take that as insipiration for the survival spec.
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Melee Hunter in Classic has the same problems that melee Hunter in BFA has (sort of). You have 1 melee ability, Raptor Strike, which is on a 6-sec CD. If you are raiding or running dungeons Mongoose Bite and Counterattack are almost useless as both abilities will hardly proc due to you not being hit much. So you are relying on 1 melee ability much like in BFA, which is also Raptor Strike / Mongoose Bite (depending on talent choice).
Problem?
I didnt know we had a problems, SV hunter in my time as an active player had no big issue running M+
What I’ve seen is that the general population just wants META and nothihng else. Sorry to say, but bring the player nor the class.
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Hello,
Go look logs of SVs in EP on WarcraftLogs. SVs are ok in this tier.
For the rest, it is just a sentimental factor. There was complaints when SV went melee but now that he is, it seems that those complaints vanished.
I remember the time we played with explosive shot and that was super fun but, at the moment, the funniest spec for hunter is still SV. Obviously, that is just a personal opinion.
It is super funny when you go high on parses or top dps with your guild and everyone is amazed. They tend to forgot that SV can bring high dps if well geared.
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They are still here, to say the least.
The very thread/topic we’re in now is one example.
Though I prefer if it could be done as a 4th spec option instead of a repeat of past mistakes of removing existing playstyles. Like they did with RSV.
All they can do from here, is make SV a little more polished. Fix the kinks in the spec.
For ranged, they have to really work on MM at this point. It’s the only savings grace they have. Make MM more mobile and fix talents so they make sense. It doesn’t have to be MM with a possible change of talents so it is like old RSV. Instead they should solely focus on MM being a good, adaptable and mobile ranged spec.
Serious as f*ck. but also realistic enough that it wont happen, one can dream though. MM and ranged surv were pretty much carbon copies of each other with 2-3 abilities with different names but functioned more similarly than combat and assassination or arms or fury. There is extremly little you can do do diversify a specc that shoots arrows/bullets. no diverse visual combat like you can with melee with different swings. who cares one shot is elemental instead of physical? it looks the same, does the same thing and you click the same button. Having BM beeing more like rexxar, while survival is more likewhite lion in warhammer, would promote TRUE diversity. But another ranged plonking specc taht does essentially the same as mm? why? nostalgic reasons? not good enough.