That depends. Does your progress in PvE, make people unable to do raids? Imagine if when your guild clears BWL that made MC 90% more difficult for another guild.
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Your example doesn’t fit for PvP though, it’s not like there are multiple raid tiers in PvP. There is only one and if you want to progress in that you have to dedicate either a lot of time or join an organized group, the same way you would do to clear any raid.
Yes, but you asked if we should make PvE easier. PUG vs PUG is not easier or harder. It is fair.
I did not say, it would be easy to implement separate queues and a fair honor rewarding system. We are discussing (at least thats my issue) if it is possible. And also (thats personal) to show the hypocrisy of premade players, saying “we deserve this, form a premade your self".
Do you personally enjoy playing in premade vs pug or in a pug against a premade?
It’s not fair to the premades. The system capitalizes on how much honor you make per week. Forcing a premades vs premades environment makes grouping for PvP less effective than solo queue which is really bad design and grieving for ppl who actually want to make efforts in finding and building groups.
Many people including me (in this thread I think) propose honor bonus for premades. It is perfectly understandable, that premade vs premade would be long fights, and honor per hour wise , wont worth it.
If AV wasn’t the only BG, where solo players could get honor, and I (and many others) did not love AB, I wouldn’t bother entering in a discussion about premades. But there is no alternatives for us.
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But there IS an alternative you just don’t want to do it. The tools were provided by blizzard to group up and improve your games.
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It is not fun being on the other side either. At all. It is not competitive to play in a premade against pugs.
The whole honor system, make people farm honor in PvP environment, to get PvP items, just to get sick of PvP and not entering BGs again. And it’s not like they gonna do wPvP after.
We all could at least have fun playing BGs. Because honor and gear becomes absolute very fast. It’s like working for 60 years just to enjoy a good pension for few years.
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It’s a topic taught at universities. I’m just scratching the surface of it. In reality, these kinds of things takes years to learn in full. You’re the ones trying to trim it down to twitter post lengths though, which does it a huge injustice and leads you to wrong conclusions because it’s like you’re trying to make it 2D when in actuality it’s more like 3D. Because all you’re concerned about is the little space where it only affects you.
It is not so multidimensional, I believe. It is more a matter of “making everyone happy” (and cost) for Blizzard. It is a practical problem.
I suspect that you enjoy long posts.
-a lot of people don’t enjoy PvP now.
-not everyone want or can afford to play in a premade
You say that they should be ignored, and write essays why that’s the right thing to do. I am not convinced at all. Don’t know about the rest.
Did anyone, who wanted a pug vs pug and premade vs premade games, change his/her mind after reading Beware’s (long) posts? He puts a lot of effort but personally most times I don’t know what he is talking about and how that’s connected to our problem.
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Well, I can trim it down but that never seems to work. Because people in this place often needs practical examples of what is referred to. For example, in the latest “essay”, was basically about how reward schemes works, and what the ripple effect would be of making pvp rewards easier to get (reputation & honor).
If all I said was “reward scheme”, would that have clicked at all for you? I doubt it. Not even when including relatable examples of how it works does it seem to have worked in your case.
As mentioned already, this is a topic taught at university level. It’s not so simple, no matter how much you try to make it seem like it.
“Languages are easy, it’s just how you communicate.” See how easy it is to make something seem simple? When in reality there are academic fields covering many sides to how people communicate.
As for “fun”, well, as mentioned already:
While if you make something too easy to get in a game, then the perceived value of it drops. The more people wearing the same things, the less worth you’ll place in having it yourself, in an MMORPG. That’s just the way it works.
Plus, the quicker people gear up, even MORE than now, the easier raids will become. Then you’ll see even MORE people complaining about how raids are too easy, and how it’s meaningless to play. Which is why it’s not just about the honor, it’s also about the reputation rewards and how easy or hard they are to get.
inb4 you say “but premades vs. pugs are too easy”, well, if premades are what you face most of the times then the same is true for the premades. You can’t really dodge 'em anymore, after all.
As for the difficulty of it, the hard part then is to beat other premades as a premade, while the pugs becomes “fillers” inbetween such matchups. While the punitive game design aspect to pugs facing premades is by design meant to serve as motivation to form premades themselves.
The problem is just the whiners and crybabies acting self-entitled. So to get rid of the problem, easiest thing would be to just disable queuing as anything less than a full premade. That way, the solo players won’t need to complain about being a randomly matchmade team anymore after all, while also protecting the integrity of the reward scheme as it is.
To have fun, you have to be well equipped. We need honor, to get gear. Many PvPers, don’t raid. For the same reason, they can’t play in a premade. So fun is more important, but gear is absolutely necessary.
PS: If that’s what you meant.
Its also an rpg and witch king would on pourpose set up the most uncoordinated group aginst the one with most communication? it doesent even make sense from an rp kind of view
you can pug raids, thats what we are asking for pvp, cant you understand?
You can pug for pvp. Cant you understand?
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thats like puging a 40 man raid with a group of 5 players. Cant you understand?
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No, it’s not.
It’s like trying to pug AQ40 where none of your members bothered with nature resistance gear or nature protection pots.
People not being prepared is nowhere near the same as being drastically outnumbered.
Cant you understand? Wouldn’t surprise me, given that you clearly can’t math.
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Now you’re missing the point entirely. Because the fundamental reason why people are saying it’s “bad for the game” and so on, is the fun of the content itself.
But if you would turn that argument around and say that it’s “bad for the game” because premades are getting in the way of people getting better rewards faster, then this suddenly becomes only about self-entitlement, that the people complaining deserve their rewards faster. Which they don’t.
How boring these troll-filled forums. The reality is that those who go into premade is to win easily with minimal effort to pugs. I have already seen many top rank alliances without any pvp skills. In short if it doesn’t change and they don’t match pug vs pug and premades vs premades, you have to quit the game. There is life after WOW.
Enviar
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I agree it’s a big issue. The problem is the kind of players who use the wow forums are greasy fingered tryhards and they wont criticize a system that lets them feel powerful.
They were probably defending the absurd phase 2 abuse of alliance flight points and the alliance using discord to premake AVs to win every game in like 5minutes.
That said what’s the solution. I don’t think mmr is a solution in classic. Stop people queuing up in raids? maybe.
More likely there isn’t one and we normal people simply have to suffer fat fingered greasers spamming wsg in min max premades and calling us noobs or ‘gitgud’ or whatever while they confuse what they are doing for something which requires any level of skill.