“You’ve already shown over and over again that you struggle to grasp concepts you’re presented with.”
You took the words out of my mouth.
Keep on going premade vs pugs and enjoy your easy wins, its the only way you can do so , thus why you are so adamant on keeping them going .
Sounds like yasuo mains when they went 1vs5 and coming out on top even when 0/10 and still wanted to keep him from getting nerfed.
we have nothing more to say mate.
Well as I said earlier according to forums they should be 
Agree on one thing tho, that it is just redundand and we’ll just run circles, if we try to discuss this any further.
Now I just feel so very sorry for you as a whole. It must be rough to live in the world with such a limited capacity to understand things. Basic things.
again : you took the worlds out of my mouth.
Now keep on using insults and google as you have 0 actual counter arguments
/BYE
Counterarguments have already been presented. I’m not responsible for your inability to understand them though, despite them being quite simple.
Is it also unfair that pugs takes way longer to complete raids? Can’t even pug mc+Bwl+ony in 1 night. They should make raids harder for premade.
I mean that ppl are supposed to make premades in order to be successful in PvP.
PUGs are for ppl who don’t want to dedicate themselves to that part of the game. It’s the same with PvE, you don’t expect a PUG to have the same success chance of an organized guild group.
very few people use forums, dont base your assumptions on people that post here
You have descent chances of clearing every raid with pugs, the raid mobs themselves have the same HP , tactics , etc , they do not hit 100% harder / faster nor have more difficult tactics you can hardly react to if you pug them , that would be the equivalent of what is happening when premade people run into pugs.
Unlike mobs that are there for us to kill, paying customers do not like to get roflstomped not cause they played worse or are less skilled (that is of course more than fine) but cause they run into premades that are of course co-ordinated , using the best class combos to dominate matches within minutes time and again.
The thing is that allowing that takes all the challenge and fun (for both , unless you like dominating everyone with 0 challenge and risk) and thus why I would support a match making system that pits premades vs premades and pugs vs pugs.
Hope its clear
I Do not disagree with what you said.
So why not pit dedicated people vs dedicated people , and pugs that do not have the time / will to dedicate against pugs ?
Premades will ruin pugs 99.9% the time with practically 0 resistance or challenge , basically that is all I am saying , do you deny that is indeed the case ?
Ok, seems me referencing what they’ve been saying all the time went over your head, so I’ll clarify it. I don’t believe premades are the majority. But that’s the very basis for (pretty much) everyone who complains about it, that according to them, the premades are the majority.
So following that line, even though I don’t believe it, it would mean the very reason for them to be asking for anything other than only a full premade queue, is illogical and self-centered.
Because trying to reason with that kind of people by saying they’re wrong hasn’t really gone that well, as you should have noticed by now.
Ppl are still argueing with Bewaré and his/her crusade for Pug famring?
Guess he/she must be short of r14 to be that active as a forum warrior.
I can’t think of other but two ways in fixing this issue.
First is to separate 10 men premade teams from pugs. I don’t know how it could be done, without “punishing” the people who want to be organized. They should not get less honor of course (long fights).
Second is to force solo players to form premades. And because the "encouraging ", in that direction, by being stomped and frustrated, is not working, maybe join as solo should be disabled.
PS: I can’t stand the hypocrisy of people who plays in premades, and consider their selves “worthy” to stomp pugs AND advising them to organize. ALL of them ALL, made a premade to farm honor (not earn, farm) BY stomping pugs. They are happy to meet pugs, because they don’t want to PvP. The fact that they dodge each other or the miserable Chinese tactic, proves that.
Until now, I thought that if I had time to play in a premade, I’d had eventually fun. But then I realized, that if most of my games will be against pugs, again it is a lame experience. From the opposite side, but still lame. What is the difference, in winning a pug (as premade), and killing a 10 level lower opponent? Certainly, not in difficulty.
You want an example of how it can be done, eh? Alright.
Retail has already provided an example of how it can be done.
In the end it comes down to what’s called reward schemes and the intended perceived worth. An easy example of creating that sense of worth in a player when you design a game, is to make it very exclusive. As in that it excludes a lot of people.
This exclusive effect can be accomplished either via difficult requirements, and the more difficult you make something in a game then the fewer people will end up accomplishing it, or you can do it via a very low chance RNG rarity.
For example, to compete in the m+ dungeon invitational on stage, you need to beat some of the best WoW PvE teams in the world. This, by default, excludes everyone who can’t measure up or can’t make the trips to the LAN events (including the big stage).
An example of rarity deciding how many people gets excluded is the Big Love Rocket. iirc it was only like, 1 person in the whole world who got it the first year. This really drove up the sense of worth of that mount for a lot of people during that time. Nowadays it’s not so rare due to not needing to be max lvl anymore, and lvling itself was made easier a long time ago, so it really pushed down its perceived worth for many.
An example of the opposite of these two is being given something for nothing. Like the hearthsteed mount promotional event when hearthstone first came out. You just had to complete a very simple task in hearthstone and then you got the mount in WoW. There’s not a lot of people finding any value in this, except for maybe some of the ones who missed it when it was a thing. If it would still be a thing, then even fewer people would find value in it.
Ok, so with those examples out of the way, as the expansions progressed and BG reputations losing their worth with fewer rewards, and items still being for lvl 60, it made less people interested in them since they had also turned off the rank system. Kind of like how many PvEers do BGs these days in Classic, because there are many rewards with a high perceived worth for doing them.
So what they did was first to introduce miscellaneous achievements with the new achievement system, and then also Rated Battlegrounds. This, hooked into the arena reward scheme, but also with its own titles and eventually its own transmogs of the old GM/HWL stuff once transmogs became a thing, it created a new sense of worth in doing those.
But the unrated battlegrounds still existed as well. However, what occurred was that many players who focused on rated content due to its higher difficulty and more exclusive rewards, stopped doing unrated BGs. Unrated BGs became a thing many people did to 1. kill time, and 2. get the miscellaneous achievements. This hasn’t changed to this day. (There was also a time when you could cap conquest/honor in unrated BGs, but that was later changed.)
So what this created was a very different gameplay experience depending on what you were queuing for.
Then you got the premade exploits becoming prevalent by certain regions, and the consequences of these can still be seen in the world rankings of amount of HKs on a single character.
So what can you take from all of this?
It means 1. people will do whatever they can to do premade exploits again, should Blizzard put in any arbitrary limitation to the premades which makes such a limitation ineffective in the end, and 2. it changes the reward scheme.
They’d basically either have to increase the rewards dramatically for the “premade only” queue, thus making it even easier for people to get those rewards which drives down the perceived value of them (as well as impacting PvE more than it already has with even more people getting those upgraded gear rewards from reputation), and also drives down the interest in doing BGs by the many PvEers who feels “stuck” in the BGs as they are now. Since they’d finish faster with their reasons for doing them, after all.
Or they can remove the rewards entirely from the “solo only” queue, which keeps that perceived value people see in the reputation rewards and/or rank rewards, while also keeping the interest in the “premade only” queue relatively high. It also serves to reduce the motivation to perform those premade exploits.
Bottom line is, they can’t reward the same things for two very different ways of progressing.
Which is why the thought that PvP should be possible for solo players with all its “rewards and riches” and so on in the same speed as the ones who tries harder to get 'em, is nonsensical. To start with, if fun is all they care about then rewards shouldn’t matter to them.
This is also why the simpler solution is to just remove the root of their frustration, which is that premades can get matched against randomly matchmade teams. Except not in the way they want it to be solved, which is to make solo queuing the easier option, but rather to just disable anything less than full premades from queuing.
If only full premades can queue, it brings both social benefits, as well as gets rid of the reason why they’re frustrated, which is the perceived inferiority of being a randomly matchmade team vs. a premade.
That would just kill the purpose of grouping for ranking. Should we also make PvE content easier for PUGs too?
Also bad Premades can easily lose against PUGs that know what to do, the advantage is far from 99% and closer to a 70-75%
What does easier PvE content have to do with the purpose of grouping for ranking?
Provided that the purpose of grouping for Ranks is not “because I want to play with friends” in most of the cases but to have easier PvP content.
It’s the other way around, OP is asking for easier PvP content.
You keep mentioning “rewarding people” and mean honor. We are trying to figure out how a lot of people could have fun. Meaning that they wont be feeling that whatever they do, they wont be able to kill a single opponent.
And why rewards (ranking) will be more easy for premades? Maybe the honor gained (bonus could be adjusted) but not the ranking. Blizzard could found a formula where good premade teams, even we they win (another premade) AB by 3-2 nodes (30min?), still gonna make more honor than a pug that wins with 4-1.
I played a WSG today against a pemade. First time after a maybe two months. Some teammates did not wanted to dismount and fight. I had to charge (as a Priest) just to start the fight. They were so discouraged.
Blizzard should disable solo queue if nothing else could me done.
Do you enjoy making people read your essays? You know, most people wont read that. I am trying, but already feel tired. This is a MMO forum, not Philosophy.
Dont argue, best test would be to match prem vs prem exclusivly and you would have 70% of todays premades back in solo queue because they are not elite enough to make it work (for the 30% skilled PvPers it would make no difference, they farm premades as they farm PuGs).
It is the 70% soso skilled PvPers that fear for their sweetspott.
Exactly my observation. They say “Go form a premade” but they don’t want to fight premades. Even a 5 man group, could win most games but that requires skill and EFFORT, and the only “effort” they are willing to take, is farming for hours.
Any premade players out there? Do you enjoy playing against PUGs? You know, that feeling, which is the only reason to play a game?