Well, one can probably assume many casual gamers with little time to play should’ve noticed by now it’s kinda hard to rank up with that little time so honor becomes less relevant to them.
It’s interesting how neither of you said you’re ok with severely reduced or removed reputation rewards though. Didn’t take you long to say you were ok with no honor after all.
I see no reason for reputation rewards to be reduced, since pugs is having just as hard a time to get rep as premades meeting premades.
The integrity of the reward scheme. That’s why.
Not really.
Basically, I hit the bullseye, eh?
Yes really, pugs dont win over other pugs more than premades win over other premades for rep.
Ok, so we continue the reward discussion.
Then we should set up that there are 2 different reward types in this bgs.
a. The fixed reward (Reputation)
b. The variable reward honor (variable because it is relativ to what the ppl on your fraction of your server do)
Why would you not seperatly discuss them?
And why woud be Reputation a problem regarding Prem vs. Pugs in conection with h/h. I dont see the intersection.
Like honestly, I don’t care about them making premade vs premade queue with extra honor. However it is frustrating for the people who just want to play with friends or just have higher quality games.
I can already see the consequences of it already. Premades will not premade anymore unless they are top-level, even with increased honor as 5-man queueing and winning in a quick time will give them more than fighting in a premade vs premade queue.
You have to get into the minds of the ones who want an easy fight. They will find a way to manipulate the system for their own gain, they will make the solo queues just as miserable as they are now, maybe even moreso. The casual premaders such as myself who just want to have some fun games will instead be funneled into top premades and be stomped (as we’re easy picking) when the rest of the wannabe ranker people go into the pug vs pug queue as 5mans and dominate with full consumes. They may even abuse the report function to get rid of “non abiding” players.
This is my worry.
That and it completely ruins the whole point of “vanilla” which was a group MMO, something that was completely neutered in later versions of WoW. Of course I wish xrealm wasn’t a thing, I think the problem would be a lot less if it wasn’t introduced in classic.
I also think as a casual player we have to accept that we may not be able to rank at the same pace or to the same rank as most dedicated players. Just my opinion of course, though.
I dont agree, if the rewards from doing a premade is big enough even for a loss.
But then we will have casual players complaining that they cannot rank up and it’s not fair.
There is no easy fix.
Casuals players do not rank up anyway, not to any high rank, they just want some fun in bg’s.
^ That part explains it though. It’s connected to the motivation of doing the content itself.
Basically, if you’d offer an easier option to get the reputation, which is a big part of why many people do BGs (including the rankers), then you’d take away a huge motivation to even forming the premades. Not to mention it’d serve as an additional reason to do premade exploits, but those weaknesses have already been mentioned plenty of times already.
Anyway, so you’d create two separate problems beyond the weaknesses of the concept itself:
Then there are other weaknesses like the warsong PY teams on Chinese servers becoming a real risk and so on. Many, many issues involved.
Not according to this thread, have a read and see some of the replies.
People who can hardly play but want rankings.
I don’t think what you said is true of all casual players. Only some of us don’t care about ranks, I’d say there are a lot who do and feel it is “unfair”.
Im not going to read the entire thread, im only saying what i think of it.
and Casuals will never get high ranks, dosnt matter if they want it or not.
I just want more fun bg’s and meeting premades is not it.
I agree, but I mean this thread proves otherwise 
I know as a casual player maybe if I had time I could get to r10, at a push if I really squished my schedule r11. But it’s very doubtful XD
But yeah, I know meeting premades is not fun as a solo player. If there was no Xrealm I think there would be less of an issue personally, I really feel blizz screwed up on that front.
on 1: You already have the intrinsic and extrinsic reward set up as you discribe them (ask some of the r14 ppl how many bgs they did after reaching their rank).
2. I would reduce the amount of people doing premades because the reason for doing them for many people would be gone because they would not get their honor (by farming Pugs) as fast as they are used to.
I made it to rank 11 in vanilla, was not fun to get the last rank from 10 to 11, had to do so much bg’s
and by last rank, i dont mean its the highest rank, only my last rank 
I think even bad premades losing should get more honor than a pug that win, that would make an incentive to do premades or just be a casual.
Don’t think you understand the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards, based on what you said there.
You’re basing that conclusion on the assumption that it’s all done for the honor per hour and nothing else. But you must understand that it’s only compared to the honor per hour in AV, which those types of premades competes against. But then again, the premade exploits and Chinese Warsong PY teams becomes highly relevant in such scenarios as well.
But I was talking about the motivation for doing them, so you’d turn a social design that encourages intentionally grouping with the same players over and over again, into one where many wouldn’t bother anymore because they’d get their reputation rewards faster from the proposed “solo queue” segregation.
Then please explain it.
Intrinsic = playing the game for the fun
Extrinsic = playing the game for its rewards.
Yes that is my assumption as vanilla and private servers have shown that it is.
Anyway, thanks for the distraction. Prefer this to corona discussions atm which I can t avoid. I’ll be back tomorrow.
edit: and for the sake of the argument. Reduce honor and reputation drastically for queing as solo. I would stand for that either since it seems to bother you that someone can achieve the same without putting the same “effort” in.
Intrinsic rewards = things that are hard to do and/or takes a long time to do it. It basically becomes a feeling of having achieved something extraordinary.
Extrinsic rewards = things that are easy to do. You don’t place much value in having received it, and you don’t really care about it pretty fast. You may feel happy for the moment though, but not for long.
No, it’s the impact it’d have on the social aspect. It’d become much harder to form premades without such a limitation on the solo queue, which is bad for everyone since the game is supposed to be social.
If you want a game where people don’t talk to each other, then retail is a perfect example of that.
Is aiming for rank 10, “caring about ranking?”
People who raid, can get better equipment than rank 10 set. So they don’t care much. Those who mainly PvP, need honor to obtain better gear, to be competitive in fights.
Once more, casual “rankers” wont be able ta rank as people who invest more time and effort (premades?).
Maybe a 5 man group, is the ideal solution. You can play with friends. You can make difference in any BG. In most games, there will be 5 man groups on both sides. And if there is only on one side, it is not an instant defeat, and people wont be discouraged to fight.
As you said, it is not an easy subject.
I dont agree completely with your definitions of the rewards nor with your definition of the social aspect of the game and its relevance.
And since I dont want to argue for a shared basic level of the discussion I would let it go here.
Agree to disagree?