The AV meta has evolved to an intolerable stage for Horde

Crazy as it might sound, I’m one of the few people that actually enjoys playing Alterac Valley. I’m not an honour farmer by any means, but what few ranks I have gained, I’ve gained from queuing AV when I’m bored.

Over the past 2 weeks, I’ve seen the meta go through many changes. This is purely from my own experience, but initially alliance were winning every game. Then horde figured out a better strategy and were winning every game. Then came the alliance premades. At first these steamrolled through horde teams, until horde realised that some of these premades weren’t very well organised and a heavy defence + slow push attack strategy would break about half of them. Those badly organised premades seem to have died out which leads us to where we are now.

This is speaking from purely my own experience, however 90% of my games now in AV appear to be against highly organised, high ranked alliance premades. They’ve figured out their strategy and are able to cut through most horde teams with ruthless efficiency. This strategy is so often used, most horde AV players know it as well as the alliance players do.

At first, presumably while still under the illusion that any premade could be broken with a heavy defence, Horde players would fight valiantly and would assemble at Galvanger and later at Frostwolf base to try and stop the Alliance raid in their tracks. As someone who actually enjoys playing AV, these games were actually very enjoyable (even though most of them were losses). The enemy were not brainless and actually posed a challenge, and Horde players would have to adapt and work together to try and push them back out of the base. There was a joy in the minor victories like being able to force alliance to turtle at Frostwolf aid station and then wiping them before they could cap it. The mantra was, if we were queuing 25-30 minutes for a game, we might as well make it last.

That mantra has now changed, and it has changed drastically. Get as much honour as you can before we lose is the best way I can describe it. No longer are horde interested in engaging the enemy. The mindset has changed that fighting the alliance raid is pointless; it will only have a negative impact on Horde’s honour per hour and make the games last longer. Horde players seem to want short games now if it VS a highly organised alliance premade. Far from rallying the troops, horde players will now shout down any players who make any suggestion of mounting a defence against the oncoming alliance raid. In these games, both raids will run past each other. There will not be any PvP. And while alliance take home the big prize uncontested, Horde will happily fight for the scraps.

This is the end result of min maxing honour farming taken to the extreme. These types of games are devoid of any meaningful PvP, and most of all, are not fun to play. So corrupting is this mindset, it has convinced the mass majority of players farming for ranks they will ultimately never achieve, to prop up the few farming for the top ranks by playing bland and joyless games over and over again.

I don’t know what the best solution is to fix this and make AV enjoyable to play once again. I’m sure there are many. What I do know is that this is yet another example of the core reason why classic isn’t as fun as vanilla was, isn’t because of the game, but the way we choose to play it.


Wall of text - “I really want to win all my AVs and I can’t”

“I also don’t care about honor”

Not sure what you want really.


Why post another thread about this?

I can see you mean well - but why not add your thoughts to an existing thread instead of infecting the forums with another whinge?

It is what it is

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yes, be toxic, its the wowforumway #nochangegitguddquitreroll


The mental effort to keep defending every time in such a manner vs. the tryhard premades became too much to keep going.
People now choose the ways that relaxes them more. As simple as that.


Not sure what I want? Well we could start with you actually reading the damn post before making a stupid response.


Hey HP

I haven’t had a chance to say this about our previous discussion on horde queues… But here it is:

Told ya so!

That’s all I wanted to say really.


So it has come full circle? Similar to first few days.

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No - quite right

I found it hard to believe that Blizz would do a 1 instance queue stack- but they did

You were correct

And you may have noticed by attitude - it is what it is

No point complaining

So far, the only way the meta has changed is that Alliance Rush B(oss), then either solo pull the boss via NPC or kite the warmasters to an evade point and wins through that.

There is a easy fix.

AV is hard to balance due to the size of the map.

WSG is balanced properly.

Just make it like pre-1.12 that WSG give more Honor than AV.

The way to do this is by making AV games longer.

How do you make AV games longer? By simply reverting AV to it’s initial state like during it’s launch in Vanilla.

Problem solved. It’s just nonsense that a PVE undertaking like 1.12 AV is making players High Warlords.


Hi Lazlow,

Well written post and you mentioned exactly what I am seeing also.

It is truly disappointing that AV has turned into this mess.

I encourage everyone who is concerned about the state of AV to raise an in-game support ticket and point out the ‘cheating characteristics’ of these premades.

The louder we speak about this, the higher the chances that the right people at Blizzard hear about it.

To me, it is so ridiculous at the moment that I just cannot imagine that Blizzard is going to leave AV in its current state.

We need to remove the AV queue number on the ’ enter screen’ which is used to help the premades get their teams into the same AV.



Why can’t this player base just get good?

What annoys me personally is the endless defensive games where you don’t even get honor for kill any longer due to diminishing returns. Its just wasting time for everyone.

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“Meaningful PvP” is not a primary objective of AV. Killing Vann/Drek is.

No. The horde heavy defense strategy was as way to “punish them and make them suffer because we have long queues”

Drag out the game as a way to make it more unpleasant for the opponent. There was nothing valiant about that and it had nothing to do with honor. It was a spiteful reaction to childish jealousy because horde chose the faction with long queue times.

Also, please don’t forget that horde can win most games through the back door advantage they have.

So, get cracking and start winning and stop whining.



No, might aswell just introduce the option to queue as raid. That way, horde that want turtle games will team up and horde that want honor and fast games can queue together.

But obviously, this change is absolutely disastrous for pug alliance. It is better to just leave it be.

Just because you saw a screenshot of a north american bg chat where they asked the horde to turtle because they wanted to punish doesnt mean it applies to all horde.

Horde that turtled only cared about winning, nothing else. Your assumption that ever horde is a minmaxer is not correct.


Maybe you should learn to read then. Or just refrain from posting in a thread you apparently don’t understand.
He’s complaining honor min-maxing made horde stop trying to pvp, just rushing fast losses.
It’s not a new subject at all, but apparently you still managed to miss the point.

Hi Lazlow!

The last part of your post perfectly summarized what I have been experiencing in 95% of my games since 2020 but from the Alliance side.

Game starts 10 (A) v 40 (H). The horde defends choke-points (FW Gy, IBT and GALV) with 15 ppl, kills balinda and the lieuts, a small group of 5ish backdoors the Alliance base and caps the towers. The Alliance cannot react because has been outnumbered for now 6 minutes and then everything transforms into a “get as much honour as you can before we lose”.

Sad stage indeed. Not sure what the solution could be.

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In my opinion make ways for even balance in faction for PvP. I.e. nerf Horde racials.

Fix the bugs and exploits in AV with backdoor and pulling without guards.

If the ratio is equally in PvP Alliance can no longer Q at the same time and the alliance pugs will also not have to be in losing Bgs due the outnumbering.

Also i still think people underestimate how overbearing Horde racials are in the smaller BGs.

I think AV Honor gain needs to be nerfed, but at the same time over a few weeks you would see the nerf threads for Wotf and Stun resist popping up more and more.