The negative aspects & long-term ramifications of Dual Spec implementation

[Ynotnaked-gandling]

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Pushed people to move and be active throughout the world, look for farming spots, explore, do dungeons or craft to earn money.

I think you are underestimating how many players chose to not farm gold at all, stay in one spec and not bother to explore other gamemodes. Because of the low barrier in SoD to changing talents I’m actually finding out how chill Pve can be.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Encourages players to roll/need on all types of items, because after all, they have two specializations

Most raids ask you the specify your role before the raid tho? When you come as shadow you can only roll (1-99) on heal items.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Tanks and healers have fewer reasons to join groups in these roles, because they now have permanent access to dps spec

Is this true though? I have ofc no data, but I do not believe SoD is lacking ppl willing to tank and heal at the moment.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Raid leaders will ask people to change spec before each boss or mob pack as needed, and/or force people who don’t want to play or maintain two specializations to do it anyway, under penalty of being lynched or refused future entry.

These raidleaders are retarded.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Even for a simple group or dungeon, when a Druid will say that he is not a healer, he will be flamed because “he has two specs how come he refuses to heal”, etc.

Never seen this happen. A druid might be politely asked if he is willing to heal but if he doesn’t want to, no problem.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Erosion of social foundations: a player is no longer known by his specialization (tank, healer or dps)

Actually both my specs are healing. One for pvp and one for pve. But I might be a deviation.

Overall I agree with you to some extend that dual spec may lower the incentive to go out in the world to farm gold. What you think about a bit lowering respeccing cost? Like 25g? I’m dadgamer, have only 1 hour to play each evening midweeks.

[Yuniel-earthshaker]

The negative aspects & long-term ramifications of Dual Spec implementation

I think you are underestimating how many players chose to not farm gold at all, stay in one spec and not bother to explore other gamemodes. Because of the low barrier in SoD to changing talents I’m actually finding out how chill Pve can be. Most raids ask you the specify your role before the raid tho? When you come as shadow you can only roll (1-99) on heal items. Is this true though? I have ofc no data, but I do not believe SoD is lacking ppl willing to tank and heal at the moment. These…

I’ve always firmly believed that respec costs were way too low, so there you go regarding what I think.

I mean, it’s a bit similar to the Rank 14 grind made easier. Why should everything be available to everyone with the lowest amount of effort ?

I disagree with such philosophy. It’s an RPG, class specialization should matter, you want to change it, you should pay a hefty price. That to me, is part of what creates and drives immersion, meaningful and thought out choices.

Now with dual spec, you’re basically just the class, that can do and switch to anything anytime. Renders specializations and talents mute.

The game shouldn’t cater to people’s schedules, whims or desires. The game is what it is, people should to cater to the game if so desired and not vice-versa.

We’ve already been down this road before : the exact same threads, the exact same complaints, the exact same demands… I know because was there since day 1, in 2004. This is no different.
People are already asking for random dungeon finder, faster xp, more loot from bosses, etc, as we speak.

[Sharknado-nethergarde-keep]

@Yuniel-earthshaker

So up until now, there was a high barrier to entry in place, which prevented people from respeccing. So people didn’t do it, unless they actively farmed gold to be able to do so.

People run thousands of gold. For most spending 50g isn’t a problem. Having to do it multiple times a day because guildie really needs a tank or healer for something isn’t the most fun thing to do. (Hello TBC).

@Yuniel-earthshaker

It was a significant gold sink, the game already didn’t have many, except for the epic mount for example, etc.

In Vanilla, not in Classic.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Loss of identity and meaning of specializations and classes

What identity 30+ rogues and warriors in a raid group have playing on a 10-20K realm? Aren’t druids supposed to switch forms? Aren’t priests light and shadow?

@Yuniel-earthshaker

a player is no longer known by his specialization (tank, healer or dps), but only as his class, which was the foundation for community-building, friendship, renown on the server, etc.

If you want to be known you make 100% parses or you grind PvP rank to max or you are a successful streamer. On a mega server, you don’t know 99% of players.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

So loss of identification to your character because less unique, lower long-term involvement in the game

I abandoned my resto shaman, druid, and HPala soon after being spec-locked and having fewer options to do anything fun outside of raids. Most fun I had on a frost mage and not because of raids.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Encourages players to roll/need on all types of items, because after all, they have two specializations

Have you ever raided in anything even barely organized? People aren’t letting others steal their loot.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Tanks and healers have fewer reasons to join groups in these roles, because they now have permanent access to dps spec

I want the dual spec to play Druid now. If they didn’t add it I would pick a mage or not play at all (second mage won’t be that fresh). And in TBC to be able to play tank or healer deep talents are needed so no “one build” is possible like in vanilla.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Raid leaders will ask people to change spec before each boss or mob pack as needed

Funny how only complainers come up with this argument.

If you want to be given free loot in 30 min MC clears by joining the most sweaty deranged guild on the server doing 2-raid-spec - it’s your choice.

If a mage wants to optimize frost and fire it’s his fun. If hybrid wants a healer / non-healer spec it’s his fun and right to do.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Even for a simple group or dungeon, when a Druid will say that he is not a healer, he will be flamed because “he has two specs how come he refuses to heal”, etc.

Only 3 warrior groups do this… For later content - not everyone can be familiar with tanking/fear of tanking. Healers are more approachable but also not everyone heals. Groups usually form based on which roles are needed, not which classes are needed.

And now my druid in later content will be able to heal or tank as needed. Which is more fun than camping one spec and not switching for a “quick help needed”.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

Not to mention the fact that it will make raids and dungeons easier overall, because players now have access to another set of abilities

The content is trivial and boring. Killing Shazzrah in 15 seconds instead of 20 because two mages rolled ignite isn’t a change. Locks will be able to dot a bit more which also is a minor change.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

The game is supposed to be an RPG (role-playing game), if everyone can do everything, there’s less need for outside help, less need to group with other players; it erodes the basic foundations of what an mmorpg is supposed to be

You can’t do everything at once.

The game is raid logging, botting, boosting, RMT, and account sharing. And in two days “LF Spellcleave”. If you aren’t on a RP realms then the game is degraded way away from what it was 20 years ago played by noob teenagers. Dual spec IMHO prevents max-level toons from getting locked into one-build one-content. This quickly leads to raidlogging into unsub.

[Toxicedge-aggra-português]

and to add to everything that was said by the people defending dual spec (which I hope they change to “cheaper respec at a trainer” instead of allowing you to change on the spot):
RMT/Gold buying is so prominent in Classic Era (you can tell by the number of bots) that the “pushed people to farm and be active” argument falls flat on its face
It actually turns into a “pay 2 win” aspect if they leave it the way it was back in Vanilla, since it’s a permanent heavy cost/impossibility for a lot of people (those who can’t just throw 50g multiple times a day to partake on their activities, while those with more disposable income get to ignore that (and many other) “mechanics”

[Bfaclassic-everlook]

tldr;
there are 2 types of people that dislike dual spec

1. ppl who only play pve (they dont need a 2nd spec, so why should anyone else have one?)
2. people who play 12hours a day (of which 4-6h is gold farming) who can afford to change specs 4times a day

Dual spec exists so people switch between pvp and pve, or between playing a tank/healer and farming stuff.
You guys act like everyone will be forced to use 2 different pve specs of the same kind (for example 1 dps spec for bosses, 1 for trash mobs) which results into easier raids.
GUESS WHAT, the raids are already that easy, the BWL world record is 18minutes - it cant get easier than that. All that dualspec will change in this regard is that the new worldrecord will be 16mins instead of 18 - oh no classic is ruined.

[Bluerose-mandokir]

of course, who hasn’t played the classic aoe damage build with resto druid for farming ZG mobs?

[Hcdjinn-kazzak]

Sorry if my english is bad its not my main language. And before i go trough these; I agree era should stay era. Leave it be. And do i think there should be fresh nochanges server that inevitably ends in transferring characters to existing era server and starts the cycle again to keep the small but very vocal #nochanges community happy? Absolutely. Now that being said…
Complaining there are changes on fresh_ANNIVERSARY_EDITION_ is like complaining about changes on SoD XD Sod was a hot mess of a spaghetti thrown to wall to see which spells and playstyles stick to give small idea what to implement on the inevitable classic+ considering classes and specs. ANNIVERSARY_EDITION is the QoL check to see what parts of gameplay that doesnt involve class changes needs to stay and what parts can and should be changed without affecting the gameplay too much.
I for one welcome all the changes made on the fresh anni. Heck it. I hope they make even more changes.
But for the sake of argumenting let me give my 2 cents no one ever asked for:

Lack of dual spec

• Pushed people to move and be active throughout the world, look for farming spots, explore, do dungeons or craft to earn money.

Yeah no. I just stopped playing because it was very offputting to farm tons of money just to do pvp and pve WHENEVER I WANTED. “but dont play game that requires time if you dont have time” how about we have a game where even if i dont have that much time, can still play the game how i want which makes the both pve and pvp more active and faster to participate on behalf of others too. (more for pvp as more people queuing = faster pops as faction balance is forced)
And also i think most of the people who actually farmed their money just made mages and either boosted or soloed dungeons/zg for it so… so much for active world XD

• It was a significant gold sink, the game already didn’t have many, except for the epic mount for example, etc.

Cool so now you can sink that money to gearing alts or buying flasks. Which is like also a good thing.

Now the “deeper level negatives”

• Loss of identity and meaning of specializations and classes

Very romanticizing idea of how “most” ppl play classic but i think its incorrect.
I think most identified with the class and not the spec. As most of the specs werent even viable to identify in classic because of buff/debuff limits and other limiting factors (like specs just straight out sucking in pve)

And also this

@Pacalis-pyrewood-village

Please play a fire mage and keep your identity while in MC without dual spec.

• Erosion of social foundations: a player is no longer known by his specialization (tank, healer or dps), but only as his class, which was the foundation for community-building, friendship, renown on the server, etc.

What. Yeah i remember the player name and if player was good or bad not the spec. Also if i had someone tanking well and later meeting that person as a dps/healer i tought there was a high chance of them also being able to use their brain and skill to also be good playing that other spec. This is not a hard game XD Also good person is a good person. Which is the real foundation for “community-building, friendship, renown on the server, etc.” Not the spec XD

• So loss of identification to your character because less unique, lower long-term involvement in the game

yes very unique druids and shamans and priests and paladins being mostly healers in raids because it was so much easier finding group compared to their other specs… also very unique to copy your spec from interwebs to match which dps spec of your dps class is best for which tier considering dmg output. Yes very rpg feelings yes.

• Fewer reasons to reroll, therefore fewer reasons to play in the long term

More reasons to reroll wth? Easier to play alts as you can do both pve and pvp or whatever the hell you want to do with the other spec slot. Comparing to making alt just for the sake of moneyfarming so you can keep respeccing your main to do more than 1 activity at time. You make 0 sense dude XD

• Encourages players to roll/need on all types of items, because after all, they have two specializations

Yes because i NEVER saw anyone rolling outside their current spec when i was in raid before dual spec? Depending on looting rules, but i really liked the sr system. And you can sr whatever the heck you want. You wanted to use your sr to OS? That is ok. Also if you mean ppl joining to raids as healer but rolling to melee gear (ex. palas and shamans) it is ok if its agreed before raid starts and everyone is ok with it. Not a real problem xd

• Which will then lead to an ostracization of certain hybrid classes (refusal or not wanting to play with them for fear of them needing all the items)

once again. Agree before raid how loot is districted. Not a real problem that doesnt exist already…

• Before you had to choose, be a pvp spec player, excel in one but not the other, well no now you can excel in all areas without consequences or price to pay

So you have problem with ppl enjoying more parts of game simultaneously which makes more participation in all areas which makes the game more active in every possible way? weird problem to have buddy. Also the original reason which drove me away. Not wanting to spend good chunk of my freetime farming money to enjoy both pve and pvp and ending up losing interest in both.

• Tanks and healers have fewer reasons to join groups in these roles, because they now have permanent access to dps spec

More reasons to join as tank or healer because they dont need to indentify as those specs just because the amount of work it takes to play multiple specs with 1 character. There i fixed it for you.

• Raid leaders will ask people to change spec before each boss or mob pack as needed, and/or force people who don’t want to play or maintain two specializations to do it anyway, under penalty of being lynched or refused future entry.

first real argument here. This one i agree. I hope that the dualspec comes with restriction to only access other spec in main cities. The very least closest inn but hopefully only in main cities/class trainers.

• Even for a simple group or dungeon, when a Druid will say that he is not a healer, he will be flamed because “he has two specs how come he refuses to heal”, etc.

Tbh there have always been idiots who think they can dictate how other should play and enjoy the game. Kinda like this thre… But you see it is up to you if you wanna ruin your day if someone demands those kinds of things or participate in the gameplay with those idiots. Or you can just find other players who dont care about that kind of stuff… There are those also. Not a real problem but a personal choice.

• Not to mention the fact that it will make raids and dungeons easier overall, because players now have access to another set of abilities

Same answer as before. Restrict spec changing to main cities. But this is second good point you make.

• The game is supposed to be an RPG (role-playing game), if everyone can do everything, there’s less need for outside help, less need to group with other players; it erodes the basic foundations of what an mmorpg is supposed to be

Kinda half a point. But forcing someone to participate in group activities because of spec “choice” is not a good gameplay mechanic in the end. And things that required groups before will require groups in the future so at same time this is kind of a moot point. Also most of time people group up in certain activities because its faster and smart. Not because they have to.

@Yuniel-earthshaker

All those are not argument, but just blind and unreflected responses that don’t consider deeper implications.

Like said before. Those are absolutely arguments and most of them valid ones while we are that but i opened them a bit more for you in case there was something that went over your head. Dont be blinded by your ego pal You are not as smart as you think.

TLDR: i hope classic andys get circle which stays the same and what they can run around over and over until the end of time but please let the rest of us change this game actually for the better.

[Yuniel-earthshaker]

Definitely smarter than you, pal, and nothing you say will ever change that.

Dual spec is antithetical to the concept of an RPG. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you. Dual spec shouldn’t exist, and if it does, the cost should be very HIGH.

Pal.

[Hcdjinn-kazzak]

Ah. It seems problems you have with changes might have more to with neurodivergent problems rather than justified reasons. Gotcha pal.

Also here is a link i recommend you to read trought bro. Might do you good.
https ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

[Cunix-turalyon]

Classic era go there

[Sharknado-nethergarde-keep]

Have you heard of the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV? With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award-winning Heavensward, and thrilling Stormblood expansions up to level 70 for free with no restrictions on playtime and with all jobs available to level up on one character.

[Purplase-azjolnerub]

Cool words you bring up, it’s a game that you somehow feel entitled to gatekeep from others. Talking about being ethical, you calling people names is not really ethical. Just decide for yourself if you can accept dual spec, and from there if you play this edition of classic yes or no.

[Kiryaa-mirage-raceway]

Are we talking about the same genre? I must have missed the memo when playing through many systems with my friends. Hell 9/10 our role in the team was fluid and solely dependent on the situation, gear we had roll of the dice and our own decisions.

Once I started with mage archetype only for my rolls ending favoring the physical side. And so in combat I usually stood at front with two handed sword while outside of it I used what little magical talent I had to act as a scout and watchman for the group.

In the other system my witch was equal part mage and healer depending on how I chose to use available spells to me.

Very, very few systems will lock you into specific path most allowing you ton of freedom in forming your path. If anything forcing you to stay a single path is an antithesis to RPG and often times hurts the flavor of the class.

[Rolfkrake-living-flame]

I do as the light commands me.

The light says heal, I heal.
The light says protect, I protect.
The light says one shot baby cryers, you friggin’ dang know what I do.

[Hildagard-pyrewood-village]

You’re exactly the kind of person this game needs more of.

[Sausiege-argent-dawn]

make a time machine and go back to 2005 or 2019 if you want pure vanilla again, this anniversary is for those that don’t want to bust their brains over technical limitations of the time because somehow its “good design”.

[Mermelada-ashbringer]

But its not. If you work on job and some one recommend changes YOU DONT HAVE TO LISTEN! Dont buy double spec i dont know whats wrong with you people. I swear all of you hate other players and think that 15% percent of people should dictate how the game is played. Nothing changes for you. Literally nothing changes.

[Anorion-firemaw]

@Yuniel-earthshaker

• Pushed people to move and be active throughout the world, look for farming spots, explore, do dungeons or craft to earn money.
• It was a significant gold sink, the game already didn’t have many, except for the epic mount for example, etc.

It only pushed me to raid logging and afk in stormwind. I don’t think that i’ve spended more than thousand gold on repsecs. So if dual spec will cost 1k gold, than your arguments are null. Because i’ll have to farm that 1k gold.

[Vîc-golemagg]

I agree with you, but you are fighting a lost battle mate. Don’t waste your time, they are obviously not willing to listen to you. We will see what happens in a few months time. I can already see the youtube titles in front of me “How dual spec DESTROYED classic anniversary”

[Anorion-firemaw]

That’s such a great answer, that i’ll save that for future