I’m sorry but the advantages that the horde have In the first half is massive in comparison to the Allience with zero drawbacks. the same advantage that you talk about for allience also goes AGAINST the Allience when they have to attack ShGy from spgy because it is the same problem that the horde face it is travel distance. The distance is too great to reinforce and attack but there is a catch you can summon both Lok and wing commanders which breaks any Allience advantage at that point since there is no way to prevent the summon if we are spawning at spgy.
What can Allience do apart from hk the horde at sp until there is no honor left or wait till they summon the bosses and defeat you. Defending shgy on the first half without being able to push through the horde advantages does nothing as well.
1: It’s not the same queue system.
2: It’s not the same reward system.
3. Those maps are not designed to be hour long games where you fight PvE bosses.
Because the queue system was different.
AV is a PvEvP slow battleground design for long slow games around pvp and pve.
It’s because the longer games is not rewarding for the faction with a short queue so the good and motivated Alliance players generally stay away from AV after they have their rep.
Yes, AV is a very different map that is not symmetrical by design and never was. It’s designed for lore and faction fantasy and are a unique PvEvP battlegrounds designed for long slow game that is very inefficient way to farm honor for the faction with a short queue.
You could say the exact same thing about WSG. Yet for some reason Horde pugs don’t turtle and go for long games or have a 99% winrate.
The queue for AV is also basically directly because the map is so imballanced. The other 2 ballanced BGs Horde queues are fairly short. Near instant at times. Yet AV queue is close to 2 hours.
They can kite meme lord to cave and defend until Horde is weakened and push south with the ram riders after an hour or two. As it’s designed. If they are a stronger team they can hold SH GY and push south from there after 1h or so. As it’s designed.
But ofc, no one wants to do that because the rewards per hour would suuuuuck.
That is completely unrealistic as the whole horde team push with Lok as well as having those flying bats hitting you for half your health and every kill that Lok makes on the way makes him stronger the only chance you gotta kite him away is before shgy is capped as it’s more open. The ram riders are just not strong enough in comparison.
let’s say the impossible happens even if by magic we do this because half the horde fell asleep on their keyboard from waiting 2 hrs in a queue and playing for 1 hr we managed to kite and kill Lok. We still cannot push though shgy even if we go full 40 man bomb with ram riders every death we take is taking upto 1:30 depending on Rez timer to reinforce. While the horde are respawning and back in action to defend in under 35 seconds depending on Rez timer
So that’s the grand plan? Hold SH while also having people complete the ram quest and also part of the team kites Lok back to the cave? Yea sure if the Alliance is strong enough to pull that off they can win. But then again they could probably also just take IB if they’re that much stronger. The level of coordination you’re expecting a pug to pull off just to stand a chance is just more evidence to how unballanced the map is.
That reason would be that it’s not exactly the same thing. I would even say that it’s the damn opposite. WSG and AV is the opposite when it comes to turtles. By design and by reality.
The queue is much shorter during the AV weekend. Why is that? Do you think the map changes or the rewards?
That’s because most alliance queue for WSG/AB where the rewards are better.
How so? You can turtle in WSG pretty well. In fact it’s a decent strategy against premades that give up after 30 minutes or so of 0-0.
Why is the queue shorter? Because more Alliance queue obviously.
Rewards for soloqueue WSG would not be better if Horde had a 99% winrate. In fact they’d probably be much worse especially if going 0-3 were the norm. Yet for some reason the exact same logic that supposedly explains the state AV is in doesn’t apply to WSG.
The single fact itself that the whole battle starts at SH GY is an obvious map advantage for horde. Ressing close to a graveyard is not an advantage, that’s the main purpose of a graveyard: a spawn point.
In the original 1.6 AV alliance reached SF GY faster, because the mid field was full with npcs which slowed horde down even if their cave was closer, so the alliance team could split into a defense and an attack group.
So does horde which could not win by a single zerg, but also had to split up into attack and defense teams.
This way both horde towers, galv and Loki’s summon site was accessible by the alliance more or less the same way as SHB and Ivus summon site for the horde from IB GY.
The 1.12 patch however made a clean route for horde by removing the npcs from mid field. They can reach SH bunker, Ivus summon site and SH GY fast from IB GY with one large zerg team and can also get to SF GY faster than alliance. Meanwhile the full alliance team is needed to defend SH GY while SF GY, horde towers, galv and Loki summon site is out of their reach.
How did alliance still win most AVs at vanilla times even with the 1.12 patch?
Because then the ranking race was already over and both team just rushed for the faster rep / hour, to get exalted with AV before TBC came out.
Nobody were interested in playing turtle games, so the map imbalance did not made any significant role, on the contrary: it actually favored alliance’s rush tactics.
What you say is mostly true. I would have to disagree though having a fight closer to your graveyard does give you an advantage as every death you back into the action quicker than your opponent.
if the fight was about the first clash at shgy Allience usually almost always win it but when it comes to defending shgy there is multiple sides to attack and if Allience win the clash you start to push towards ibgy leaving flank open and if you all defend you do not progress.
Starting the game with being in defense at your most important strategic point is an obvious disadvantage. And since it is a graveyard the reinforcement is obviously closer like with every other graveyards, so I wouldn’t say it’s an advantage.
If the game would start by alliance attacking IB GY I don’t think horde would consider it as a strategic advantage. Especially compared to the current situation when alliance needs to wipe horde at least three times and keep defending SH GY just to even reach IB.
Let’s do some AV war games and test this and settle this dispute.
Just have alliance fight alliance and vice versa, randomize the two teams, and fight. No one can blame racials that way. Or have teams fight each other 2 times and switch sides.
My prediction is that Alliance will win more or lose less. I predict that most games will be a tie.
There’s basically nothing that’s comparable between WSG and AV (except both being a BG). The queue times for WSG are way shorter. You can premade in WSG. WSG is a completely different BG. If your enemy scores a point or two in WSG it doesn’t detract from your bonus honor like it does in AV if you lose elites or towers. In AV horde would lose most of the time if they tried to rush, whereas its quite the opposite in WSG where you lose if you don’t go for flag. In AV there are several objectives that give bonus honor that horde wants to get since it’s not worth ending the game fast when you have long queue time (they often stall just to get that bonus honor at the 30 min mark). In WSG it’s best to win ASAP regardless of queue time. MAYBE you would start to wanna delay to farm kills in WSG if your queue time is REALLY long… not sure about that one tho
Depends on the meta they play. If both rush, then Alliance wins, if Horde turtle, then Horde wins.
I’m not sure how you could manage this test, but I’m down to it if you are able to recruit 78 more players. (At least we could play some fun Classic AVs.)
I mean, people (mostly horde players) actually suggest the map is balanced. If there was any truth to this they wouldnt have made multiple changes in alliance’s favor in TBC (such as moving the entire horde entrace waaay back on the map)
Right now, horde will always be able to reach the middle of the map before Alliance can, meaning the only real option for Alliance in almost any game is to defend SH GY.
If Alliance lose SH, they get pushed back to Stormpike, and the map layout with the SH choke and the long road in between SH and ST makes it nearly impossible to retake SH once its captured and the game devolves into a 30-40 min turtle that alliance inevitably lose as they cant retake SH.
However, if Alliance succeed in capping SH in the early game, their next move is to then capture the Iceblood graveyard which Horde can reinforce much faster than Alliance can due to the map layout (again, the Cave is almost right next to the graveyard). The Graveyard can also be assaulted from multiple directions meaning most games have Alliance fighting a war of attrition where each death means that alliance player is very unlikely to be able to re-enter the fight as they basically need to run from SH, through the field of strife alone, while Horde can pick them off one at a time. Remember, horde can easily bypass Iceblood on the west side of the map without the Alliance defenders being able to stop them as they would have to venture too far from the graveyard.
In the unlikely event that alliance do take Iceblood, they have a fair shot at winning the game, but this in my experience rarely happens as most games never get to this point.
It’s sad that alliance has to adapt to horde’s game and counteract their upper hand, we still win 95% of BGs but every time horde starts with huge advantage, it’s macabre
In most of my AVs Ally defends SH, but Horde simply just wins it outright due to us getting 10 revives with 20 revives. Blizzard needs to up their game and fix AV, it is that simple.
Blast from the past, in this case p2 alliance on this forum, you reap what you sow.
I remeber topic after topic alliance gloating horde and defending the premade exploit.
Yes it was an exploit since blizzard said it was by trying to fix it 4(?) times.
You literally forced horde into turteling.
Back then there was ZERO talk about the map.
The map wount change, its time to stop beating the horse, its dead give it a rest.
What you should focus on is digging your faction out of the black hole the current alliance meta symbolizes and be prepared a win will take atleast 1h until horde change their meta.
What determines if horde get sh or not is pvp, at that point it has nothing todo with map unballance this and that.
You literally spawn there, horde does not.
