Both backdoors needs to be fixed.
No. Not in Classic.
Probably someone is just using it as a excuse to bury your post. Very underhanded
It could also be the Q word
dunno, but this does not explain horde defeatist attitude in wsg. (its not often, but alot more on horde side than on ally)
Well i think that changing Horde cave position, making icw passage wider to BE similar to IB Path and fixing backdoor would be enough.
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Youâre still not getting it⊠Iâll assume you read the long post earlier about advantages vs. disadvantages, but youâre still not looking at it objectively.
Horde indeed can snowball easier, but thatâs in exchange for having a worse position for the first clash when both sides runs at full speed. This is an example of asymmetrical balance. Risks, punishments and rewards. If Horde doesnât win that initial clash, it means theyâre in the same situation as the Alliance, that they then need to wipe Alliance twice before assaulting SH gy, and all that extra stuff I mentioned. Itâs also harder for Horde to win that initial clash because Alliance can connect with their reinforcements of the waves of players ressing, faster than the Horde can.
Itâs literally decided by the PvP ability itself. As it should be in a BG. The entire map was designed to be asymmetrically balanced, which is a legitimate design choice. Itâs just the whiners and crybabies using the asymmetry as an excuse for their own shortcomings, which is nothing but a player perception issue. Itâs just pure ignorance.
*backdoors.
Both of them should be fixed. And yes, thatâs enough. Only that.
Cave will be moved in Burning Crusade classic, together with the removal of commanders & lieutenants in AV. They removed comms/lieuts in Patch 2.3.0, and moved the cave in Patch 2.4.0.
But you can probably count on that Burning Crusade classic will start with those changes, instead of it being phased in later.
And this is WHY the horde wins.
Itâs that simple⊠youâre calling it turtling.
Itâs called winning the BG.
Premades in AV were bad for the alliance solo players as well as premade players would leave and itâd have the alliance players begin with 15-25 players⊠so the horde would just stomp over those people.
Too many alliance have the mentality of min-maxing honor instead of trying to win the BG, so they just give up earlier rather than âTurtlingâ or normal people call it winning.
Which is connected to the queue time, since Alliance actually get more honor per hour for losing fast than trying to break the turtle after an hour of tryharding. But for Horde, they get less honor per hour for losing fast, because the queue time is too long.
Player perception issue. Itâs that simple. Itâs not like Alliance have noticeably more min-maxers than the Horde does. Itâs just how to min-max it that becomes inherently different when the queue time differs by so much.
Pretty much, itâs all about maximum honor per hour.
Theyâd rather lose faster than to extend the game time by 10-20 minutes, if not longer.
Also, this trend of losing which started months ago, created a cynical feedback loop, where the players queuing for BGs to PvP started avoiding AV on the Alliance side, because it âjust isnât worth itâ.
So now a larger bulk of the matchmaking pool for the Alliance side is filled with the âcasual player typeâ, who are mostly motivated by the reputation gains, and these types of players naturally lose vs. the more PvP-focused players like on the Horde side, which still has a large bulk of PvPers queuing on the Horde side, since they actually win in there which creates a âpositiveâ feedback loop (positive for the Horde at least), where they think better of the BG itself because of the dominance.
So the PvPers who âplays to winâ continues to queue for AV because theyâre confident about winning on the Horde side, while the PvPers who âplays to winâ on the Alliance side have long since given up on it, because of the player perception issues listed in previous posts. The Alliance PvPers who âplays to winâ, sticks to premades instead. On the Horde side, they arenât as desperate to queue as premades though, since thereâs that cushion called AV for them to queue for solo or in small groups (mostly solo though).
And then you see the end result being whining nonstop about things that excuses the Alliance for losing. Nobody wants to admit theyâre on the losing side, after all.
You still donât get it either.
If Alliance looses first battle itâs game over, if Alliance looses second battle itâs game over, third and so on.
If Horde looses first battle you just have to win 1 battle and itâs game over for Alliance.
So your 2 battles that Horde has to win like Alliance after we win first battle has no empiric support.
Neither your worst positioning in first battle is a major disavantage to balance out anything major that Alliance has to face like assaulting IB GY for instance.
People are rational so donât go for a place where things arenât equal from the begin.
Of course rankers from both sides are avoiding each other.
When AV and WSG were released, Horde was loosing AV because of rushing tactic, so Horde rankers were in WSG premades and Alliance was doing the same in AV.
That time i used to reach exalted in WSG, so i was in pugâs facing all Horde premades, and i took nearly 3 months to reach exalted with Silverwing Sentinels, but that was my choice, partly because iâm not a ranker.
When Alliance premades were broken, Horde rankers came back to AV and Alliance ones left to do premades in WSG, facing some Horde premades too.
But Blizz came to the rescue and released AB early, so thatâs where Alliance premades were.
So there are different factors, but there is a map imbalance that most people recognize, even Horde, of course not Horde rankers that need to maintain their domain in AV at all costs.
5-man groups are also helping Horde rankers to keep control of things in AV has stated in NA forums, and that change is harmfull to the game and should be reverted, but probably wonât.
^ This way of thinking is so wrong, Iâm not even sure where to begin.
Easiest way to put it is probably: Itâs not over until youâre sent out of the BG. Neither side wins AV just from winning a single fight like youâre claiming. Just because you lost one clash, it doesnât mean youâll automatically lose every clash.
Itâs however indicative of one side performing better than the other in such a large clash though, if one side âwinsâ it, that is. So if you go from being the weaker 1 of the 2 sides into even weaker from losing morale, then yeah, thatâs gonna snowball.
The desire to win plays a big role. The ability to play well also matters. Gear average matters too. Setup also matters.
What doesnât decide who wins in AV is the map layout though. Yet the map layout is being blamed left and right by everyone as being the âtrue causeâ of Alliance losing so much. Unfortunately, itâs an endemic problem in player perceptions.
Most people are prone to scapegoating, because to truly understand a complicated issue, they need both the ability to understand it and the willingness to put forth the effort to learn about it. Most people wonât bother with that.
Most people are satisfied just venting their anger wherever they can. So when theyâre presented with an already thought-of and easy to understand âvillainâ for what troubles them, most people will just jump on the bandwagon until the villain burns. Regardless of its (il)legitimacy, as long as it gives the appearance of making sense.
Because itâs an act of self-empowerment to do so.
So everyone is wrong and map is fine, even Blizzard that changed it in TBC. You still dont explain that 2 battles that Horde has to win after loosing first One in SH GY. Ofcourse when you fight to Stay on the game like Alliance in first battle at SH, there are morale issues.
Because of the distance. The ress timer is static, so the amount of ress casts increases the further away from the GY node you are, until the GY can be assaulted (since you have to factor in the travel time and the amount of times youâll have to send the same players back to the GY on the enemy team). So while fighting close to an enemy GY, theyâll have fewer waves of people ressing in comparison, but theyâll be able to rejoin the fight much faster too, which makes that âfinalâ push to assault the GY inherently more difficult the closer you fight.
Or in other words, you need to push harder to assault a GY when close to the enemy flag, compared to cleaning out the enemies when theyâre far away from it.
Thought it was self-evident though. Guess not?
To be clear, they first changed the map itself by removing the commanders & lieutenants (i.e. the elites that slows down a push) in Patch 2.3.0.
The patch AFTER that, after having already changed the meta HEAVILY, they moved the horde cave further south in Patch 2.4.0.
Because that difference in distance in the new rush meta without lieutenants and commanders to stop for, led to Horde having an advantage since the only elites left were the ones inside Dun Baldar (and in Frostwolf Keep ofc), which had already been relatively nerfed on lvl 70 compared to the lvl 60 âpowerâ of them (how much they hit for and how much hp they have, relative to the average playerâs DPS and survivability) which you can see in Classic.
It was also in Patch 2.4.0 that they implemented the aura buff of warmasters and marshals next to the end bosses in AV, where each warmaster/marshal increased the damage and hp of all warmasters and marshals near them (including the end bosses of AV).
Because it was a reaction to patch 2.3.0 and its new rush meta, in an attempt to slow down the BG so people would still stop for objectives (burning a tower/bunker despawns its corresponding warmaster/marshal) after the commanders & lieutenants were gone.
There, happy now?
A 2 minute cooldown ability that allows you to remove a fear/sleep/charm effect
A passive that increases that chance for you to resist stuns (which must be bugged in pvp cuz thereâs almost 0 resists on stuns)
A 2 minute cooldown ability with a cast time (thatâs affected by pushback) that stuns up to 5 random targets within 8 yards for 2 seconds
A 3 minute cooldown that increases your attack/cast speed by 10% for 10 seconds.
Compared to:
A 3 minute cooldown ability that increases your stealth detection by a very large margin for 20 seconds.
A 10 second cooldown ability that allows you to slip into shadows, granting you stealth which is available in combat.
A 2 minute cooldown ability that removes all, and makes you immune to, bleeds, poisons, curses, diseases and also increases armor by 10% for 8 seconds.
a 1 minute cooldown ability that lets you escape any root or slow applied to you.
Then thereâs just the simple fact that Paladins are plate healers so they take very little dmg, their spells give back 100% of the mana when they crit (and obviously they have 100% crit chance) so they canât actually go oom. They got bubble which makes them immune to dmg and interupts for 10 seconds while they just free-heal their raid back to full hp and ofc BoP and BoF. Their auras are also really nice. And letâs not forget the 10 second Hammer of Justice stun on a 30 second cooldown.
Whatâs shamans good at? Oh ye Elemental has the potential to one-shot, just like retri paladins. And their totems have a maximum of 30 yard range which still isnât enough to be useful
Well , I know I was 14 years old when I started wow and rolled horde. I find it funny when people believe that myth until today
I was a teenager when I first started the game. As you can imagine Iâm not a âkidâ anymore. People are pretty much NOT starting this game from scratch anymore.
The only thing keeping this game afloat is the people who are already here. The sooner these idiots figure that out the better. Although, I wonât hold my breath - they arenât the sharpest tools in the box.
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I donât know if itâs the amount of beer Iâve drunk or just me, but not all alliance are angry people 
A lot of the positive people on my faction wouldnât even think of coming to the forums let alone posting on them.
In all honesty only the dwarf racial is good, though it is countered by the racial of the dwarves looking like craip. There is also the great Fear ward for DW priests.
Perception might prevent an ambush you can see coming but that is all about it.
Shadowmeld can get the jump on people but any person worth his salt will find you if they saw where you were last, it does not even drop combat in classic.
Escape artist has a cast time btw, at the rate a mage or a rogue can reapply slows, removing them once will do little good
Lets look back at the horde racials
The stun resistance does work in PvP and it has foiled my charges quite often. It probably ruins a good stunlock too. Plus the same race have an attack power steroid skill that you forgot.
The undead also got the ability to make a snack out of their dead enemies which is always nice if you need a quick heal. The fear/charm/sleep break is instant and thus serves as a second PvP trinket for several of the hard CC that can be used on you. It can also consistently wreck some openers like seduce soulfire. Lets also consider devouring plague, the best aggressive priest racial.
The war stomp is all a tauren needs to turn/drag a fight by freecasting heals during a stun. I have seen it happens countless times since TBC.
Only the trolls got the shaft in utility.
And all the classic horde races have the cool and/or edgy look as well. It helped them get the better players in Vanilla. If people believe they will win more likely than lose they will try harder to make sure they will and vice versa which creates a self fulfilling prophesy
I will accept that the paladins are good when they are holy which they are often not
I wonder, if there is another cause of Alliance lose games when SH is lost, and its not the map. If you enter a cage with MMA champion, and he KO you with uppercut, does that mean, you lost because he used that move? Or you would lose the fight whatever? He could even just /slap you to death.
The fact that Alliance lose a GY, while they rez at it, shows a problem in PvP itself. And if you lose in every fight, you gonna lose the game.
I lost a game to Russians a week before. They just had two groups of ~20 players. Half captured IB and half were defending SP gy. They easily won us. It was the first time in Classic, that I lost AV without destroying bunkers or killing Balinda. So the simplest of tactics worked, because they just won almost every fight. They also have a strong will to win and try hard.
I also believe that Alliance side has many new and undergeared reputation farmers. And most of them, have no clue.