Your entire OP in this thread can be answered with this:
The map is designed to be asymmetrical.
Fun answer, right? Even I have a limit to breaking down posts one part after another in detail to point out the faults and so on. Your OP was fairly long after all.
Iâm fine with map design being asymmetrical, but iâm not with the fact that one side can lock down 2 third of it for the other side just by sitting at IB bunker choke, even more when it can be done in the first five minutes of the BG.
AV is Just perfect.
Maybe classic just isnât for you.
Or maybe its a case of you think you do⊠But you donâtâŠ
Anyway dont blame the game. Its perfect.
Youâre obviously not. Because itâs the asymmetry thatâs bugging you, and all the other people whining about the map design. With very skewed interpretations from a victimâs perspective.
As mentioned already, that indicates your side is losing in the collective PvP âpowerâ. If your side would be capable of winning in the PvP clashes, it wouldnât have reached that point to begin with. Which is why the first PvP clash sets the pace and snowballs from there.
No matter how you design the choke points or anything else on the map, if you donât have the power to beat your opponents then it still wonât change.
Then check that link, migthy forum warrior:
But since I already know you wonât change your opinion, and to avoid even more pointless posts, I will just agree with you that AV map is fine, alliance is just bad and everything is just our fault.
There is no alliance meta that can counter the hordeâs rush to SH GY while clearing all alliance south of Bal. Horde reinforcements arrive quicker than the alliance.
Except itâs the opposite, Alliance CAN âcounterâ the rush to SH gy, by facing the Horde in a huge clash. Where, based on his post, the Horde leaves behind players to cover for IB gy anyway, so theyâre outnumbered from the start if Alliance would rush in full numbers.
And as already mentioned, Horde replenishes the numbers slower than the Alliance does when the first clash occurs where both forces meets at max mount speed (i.e. at the sides of Balindaâs building.). He seems to claim otherwise though, for some weird reason.
Horde has a full 60-90 second head start on capping SH GY even if alliance makes it to IB GY.
Except when Alliance resses closer to the first clash, they should have the greater chance of winning the first clash, but even if what he also said that Horde will always cap SH gy with a small group running straight there, it means Horde is splitting up even more and should make it almost a given that the Alliance should win the first clash, which makes it not hard to take back SH gy if the Alliance didnât have enough to defend that flag to begin with.
The rest of his post is just a bunch of emotional arguments that has nothing to do with the mapâs design itself.
Okey so let me show you how EVERYTHING you have posted is answered already probably in that thread⊠which is why you wount debate with me ofcourse:
Dun Baldar is more fortified than FW KEEP and TOWERS are easy to capâŠ
Alliance GY is closer to BalindaâŠ.
BG is decided on stronger collective force - that whole paragraph is hearsay and BS
CAVE NOT BEING SAME SPOT AS RETAIL ARGUMENT
First off you can wait and control that if you wish to. If we meet in the middle - if 1 team wants to lure the other 1 in - then they can
2nd the initial clash is not the problem - its the fact that even if we win - we cannot do much with it due to the chokepoint at IB
Cave is a MUCH closer spawn spot to IB than SP is to SH⊠And you spawn at higher numbers⊠ALREADY ANSWERED in THIS THREAD
The reason whhy HORDE donât claim injustice over SHGY being closer to Balinda - already answered at initial post, but let me add to it
Alliance Spawning in Cave after SP is capped being something to cry about - This made me laugh so hard!
Not sure if you realize - but all of your objectives are NORTH and all of ours - SOUTH! So if you spawn in cave when your NORTHERN objective is taken from you - you are FORCED to clash into us!
SInce IBGY is the first objective - we donât have gryphons / warriders / druids etc. summoned to aid us.
Because YOU are pushing into us, and choking US we canât collect scraps / orbs etc. because we just end up moving back further and further, so the only ones we can collect are the ones arround SPGY - whereas you have collected everything from icewing bunker and the valley - where you have the advantage.
When SPGY is taken usually warriders come a tad later if they arnât there already and we fall further and further behind.
We canât push South as you spawn at SHGY and need to get through that!
Morale is LOW!
You can choke us at Icewing Bunker and a single warrider means 10 of you can hold back 20 of us, especially due to the closer GY.
Usually if we take stormpike back WE STILL canât push as you are TOO FAR AHEAD and warriders come a tad later if not already there, and again - you can choke us out there, and we canât push into the valley!
You have usually summoned Lok-thar icelord thing or so we canât bypass you in the south either, or even if we try to do so, the shamans will intersect as by that time ALWAYS shamans are on their way.
If we PUSH SOUTH after you take Stormpike then thats the only way we can get some descent honor because defending grants you NONE! Which is why I proposed defensive objectives to provide honor!
You can LOCK Hordes Into The Cave when you take IB - another dumb argument
There you go mate⊠ALL you have mentioned has been answered before and any smart enough person could have though about it a bit more and figured out WHY! The only advantage we have is - an NPC in base⊠Put JOTEK in your base - I hope someday we can reach him before you do ours - LoL
Itâs because some allys understand that midfighting is not beneficial to us, we either need to cap ibgy fast or lose. If we fight mid we will lose to the endless waves of horde from ibgy. The only way I seen us win is when we were able to rush left to ibgy and 10 or so people didnât dismount but kept going to ibgy.
Midfighting for horde is ok in AV because map is in your favor, allys really have to focus on getting objectives⊠Unfortunately not enough allys understand this.
This is just straight up false.
The Alliance druids are north of the north bunker, which you can run to straight from the bridge around the outer side of the north bunker.
The reason your âscraps collectorâ is dead is because they get pulled by simply running close to them, while Alliance can conveniently skip them, as well as the NPCs to the right side of the T-intersection in the tower.
That isnât what I said. I was talking about the âbig clashesâ, which always occurs in every AV at start, where the two sides meet each other.
Itâs just that the Alliance tends to overwhelmingly lose this encounter, which sets the pace of the BG.
In an âeven fightâ, Alliance would be the side replenishing their numbers faster than the Horde side due to the closer proximity of the graveyard, as already mentioned several times by now.
Yep, yours sure was.
Youâre seriously claiming the ability to advance isnât decided by PvP, in a BG? This is just too much, not even gonna dignify that with a counterargument.
The rest of your counterarguments are yet again typical examples of skewed interpretations from a victimâs perspective trying to play the martyr.
Thatâs the LARGEST misunderstanding causing all of this. Itâs by winning in the PvP encounters that you set the pace and subsequently dominate the objectives behind the opponents.
Imagine that, a BG being decided with PvP. Who woulda thunk?
Riggghttttttt you can get to your druids, through the narrow pathway once the base is filled with hordies 
Well you can actually go in your base when we are there and recap the towers⊠you know⊠if we donât see you and are too stupid to not notice you - what a bad argument
And yes - its 1 elite and 5 non-elites⊠Murgot Deepforge is the only ELITE that we have, that you MIGHT PULL⊠so you donât even know the map⊠do ya?
And i didnât say that a BG is not decided by PVP, but AV is not decided JUST by PVP⊠an ARENA is decided by PVP solely, not a BG with objectives. Thats not the point - I claim that that whole paragraph you wrote is hearsay and BS which I donât want to comment on⊠and it is!
I wiped the floor with you mate - now Tetris awaits you! Skew it however you wish!
I never said itâs âjustâ decided by PvP, I said itâs decided by PvP, period. Everything snowballs from that PvP element, the ability to assault an objective, to defend an objective, to defend an assaulted objective and the pace of collecting materials to turn in, and so on.
That all originates from PvP and which side dies faster than the other. As a whole.
PS:
(Itâs wrong. Sorry, but it is.)
If ALL Alliance playersâ observations are true, I have a question. Why do you always lose AV when Horde has SH GY and IW Bunker? There is a point, where the distance from SH GY and SP GY, is equal. Why canât you hold Horde attacks at that point or closer to SP GY? I played about 30 AVs and not once weâve been stopped there.
On the other hand, I lost my first AV by Alliance PUG, after about 15 wins. Why? Because they had 3 good equipped Warriors and 5 healers. Also, Warriors charged my Priest before I even try to heal. They did the obvious of course. In all other games, I am healing until oom.
PS: even this team (the best pug I met) was too slow to progress. Allies tend to lack nerves and play very conservative.
Alliance team should be twice better skilled and geared than horde to win AV in this horde turtle meta with all those horde bias, from racials and useless balinda to heavy map advantages.
Sometimes it happens, no wonder.
Much less frequently than 10 stuns resists in a row on one megaskilled orc for example.
Because like Beware says, the alliance continuously loses every pvp clash. I just donât get how they canât understand this is the bigger issue. Last AV I was on last evening, the alliance would run from cave down the road and then just turn back when they saw a force of horde riding on their direction. They just turn their backs to pvp clashes constantly or lose most of them because they always get outnumbered on those clashes they canât avoid because large numbers of players directly avoided said clash on purpose leaving their team mates who pressed on alone to die to the hordeâs bigger numbers. Apparently most alliance posting about map unbalanced are always too busy measuring distances and canât notice obvious things like this.
Well, I didnât say every clash, just an overwhelming amount of them.
While what you say is indeed a problem, what you didnât mention was how even if thereâs an evenly numbered huge clash, there are, letâs say 80 people to simplify the example, all doing things at the same time, and not everyone is in range of everyone else during the entire time of the clash either. So positioning plays a part as well, which every RBG player can confirm for you.
Not everyone has AoE to spam as well, some are better single target and so on.
Eventually, it comes down to what I mentioned earlier:
Letâs say 1 side scores 5 HKs before the other side scores 1, early on in a clash. This affects the overall amount of sources producing numbers like damage output and healing output and so on, from that point.
And we all know the effects these things can have.
Then there are playstyles that are different, and itâs basically a melting pot of an insane amount of variables that together ends up deciding which side beats the other in a huge clash which opens up the way to reach objectives and so on, and to basically apply pressure.
Then thereâs such a thing as overextending as well.
PS:
This is also the reason why SH gy being closer to the first clash is by design an advantage, however player perception has misconstrued it as being a disadvantage.
Because when the PvP clash ends up âevenâ, where you basically get to score 1 HK for every player you lose on your side at the same time, the alliance side will replenish their numbers faster than the horde side due to SH gy being closer to that first clash.
You need to roll an Alliance char and try this again. Trust me, your perspective will be 180dgr different. AV is insanely Horde-Biased
But it is exactly the same for us at IB gy man. Once IB is capped, we need a triple nuclear warhead bombing to retake - it just doesnt happen, ever, at all. So, from IB cap we fall back to TP, when tp is also capped, we fall back to FW, then to base etc. Point is we never stop. âLet them winâ is just forbidden, the second someone dares to say it he gets roflstomped and /spit by all. We fight till the end even when it is obvious we will lose. Never had a game where horde just gave up.
Man, i played this in Vanilla on exaclty the same map and we were barely ever winning back then /as horde, i dont have any ally char, 0 alts/. So, why cant you do the same thing you were so successfully doing years ago?
You must be one of those guys trying to kill horde right below IBGY⊠gl with that.
No Murmaidelade, at least quadriple better geared, with no less than 60 men /vs 40 ofc/ and on heavy neurostimulants.
Your only hope.