Why AV is ruined at the moment! Why alliance can't win!

[Ichirga-nethergarde-keep]

The only thing i see here is alliance heavy, very heavy bias.
Dont you see that whatever they do or not do in AV atm you will still be stomped easily. Because it isnt the map, it is your perception that fails you. Last night i lost an AV with the alliance 5500+ honor, and horde 400 honor. Explain what happened? Volcanos erupted or what? Azeroth got a global earthquake?
Nope, just alliance played well and my horde team was very bad. So we lost. It wasnt the map, it wasnt the direction of the wind, it wasnt the Moon being in 4th quarter, it was my team.

[Krustyburger-zandalar-tribe]

Yeah but thats like 1win from 20 AV. when we have luck and AV joins so good players we can beat this HordeAVlike things like shorter distances and more…

[Aeternum-stonespine]

Maybe if there was a larger number of good alliance players queuing up for AV this could become a more frequent sight to be seen instead of 1 out of 20 matches. It’s just there aren’t that many good non afker alliance players queueing. Inb4 you say because racials/map, I’ll tell you it’s a born to lose psychological mentality handicap, the lack of confidence to win, spreads like a plague alliance side and all the excuses just serve to fuel it.

Played my 1st AV atfter a month or so last evening, obviously the horde had an easy win. From what I observed the alliance just doesn’t stick together and doesn’t fight, it’s like there is a contagious aura spreading within the ranks and the players just don’t fight and then complain that there are external factors that influence the outcome. If you want to complain at least make sure you try your best and fight, I’m sure the outcome would be netting higher honor gains but at the same time we all know why bother trying when we can just queue again and get into another match in less than 2 minutes right? Perhaps when joining the next match we will have better luck and get players on our team that can carry the game for us… imagine everyone having this exact mentality.

[Krustyburger-zandalar-tribe]

Yes i respected that horde players are better, sou you win more AVs, but wecant have so unbalanced position at start. In time you are at balinda our 60% mounts still on way to SH, just fact. And yes thats why you ahve 1 hours que bacause all we can do is just turtling till DB then lose…All games like this last 2 weeks

[Bubblegunz-pyrewood-village]

okey, so it has been a week and a couple of days since I opened the thread. Currently my winrate is 24% up from 17%, lossrate being over 75% ofc. However, my average honor per game is up to ~2830 from ~1700, so that is a huge improvement!

Blizzard has banned most bots, we have on average ~2-3 bots / afk per game which is so much better than 5-10 as we did before. This is a step in the right direction and possibly the reason why the honor gained has increased…

A couple of observations so far:

• 9/10 games by minute 5 we have our bunker in base capped. I guess I digress - the backdoor is a problem for us. It just gives such an advantage if we are on equal footing (us at drek, you at van) because we have 1 more warmaster to take care of! Fix the “over the fense” jump as well - we don’t use it anyway, but it seems to be a sticking point for the horde stating “YOU HAVE IT TOO!!”

• VAN is getting bugged every 3-4 out of 10 games. There are 2 bugs that hordies use with VAN. One consists of deagroing 1 none-elite to pull Van solo. The second I still can’t figure out… not a rogue sadly. DREK also gets bugged every 1/10 wins, so FIX both of them PLEASE! That is an exploit!

• If we lose SHGY and havn’t capped IB - we just lose - no way arround that. Hordes apparently spawn at cave after IB is taken. Why don’t alliance spawn at cave too? Its closer than Stormpike… makes 0 sense to me!

Things are going in the right direction since the ban of BOTS. 1200honor per game and 7% winrate is A HUGE improvement. We also seem to play together. Problem is some RUSH tactic knuckleheads still seem to have not caught up - that fighting is mandatory, but I hope that fixes soon too! They join once every 4-5 games and try to lead… I end up leaving usually. An Nelf warrior from Zandalar ending his name with “pro” seems to be the worst case I have seen so far.

Leftover immidiate problems are stated above! Please give us at least cave-spawns after we die at SH, or pull the hordes back to FW after they die and we have capped IB. It just makes no sense to have it the way it is. If someone can tell me what SENSE it makes - please let me know! Hordies… I sincerely ask you! BEWARE (that 110 priest guy)? Let me see the “sensible opinion” you will spew out on that topic…

-Bubblez out!

[Aeternum-stonespine]

Just to note that I’m speaking from an alliance perspective not from a horde perspective. Also when discord premades were a thing, the alliance could easily reach galvangar and kill him before the horde killed balinda even with horde defending at galvangar, so it’s doable… it’s in the players.

[Bubblegunz-pyrewood-village]

well, not really. The GALV thing was because our mages would use improved counterspell and silence your mages next to Balinda when they try to zerg in our group. We would sacrifice 3-4 mages to silence / sheep / frost nova / blast wave to stop the horde from going into the group- The rest of the team went to Galv. Also with premades we had at least 4 healers every game and were really coordinated! Its a very different thing. Had nothing to do with - being doable or not. Lets not compare the 2.

[Murrue-finkle]

And at worst, any decent premade would just dismount and faceroll the horde before mounting back to Galv.

Biggest matter so far in AV is ppl not listening at all. In most games, even after giving instructions to take and hold SF, defending SH and not doing any useless rushing, you end with less than 10 ppl at snow while 20+ go on a fail rush on galv/IB, just to repop at storm because SH is already capped. horde ends the sh*tshow by zerging SF and here we go, another 30min+ hard camp at Ice bunker before they decide to finish it.

[Bodiesan-earthshaker]

@Krustyburger-zandalar-tribe

they should pull it back like on retail…if we want have same chance

Ok then they should move all elites up to around flag in horde base and move the flag close to boss room so it’s easier to defend.

You see, both faction have it’s own pros and cons in AV. It’s a fantasy mmorpg and not a symmetrical esport.

Alliance lose so much because they are generally unmotivated to fight for long when they have instant queue and the difference in winning or losing is really small so the faction with insta queue will be lazy (having many afk leechers) in general.

[Aeternum-stonespine]

So, this is what I’m saying, it’s mostly a player problem.

[Murrue-finkle]

Not only because once we’re are locked north at ice bunker choke by horde, game is over.
Players not listening is only aggravating the map design.
I don’t mind winning or loosing AV if at least I can play during whole game, but once ice bunker hard lock is done, all I can do is waiting for horde to take storm and dun, so I can try to run south scrapping some honor on Lts/Cmds before Vandar dies.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Krustyburger-zandalar-tribe

They find mistake that horde cave is too much forward and pull it back after vanilla… Thats why we were doing premades when AV start in classic. Because horde just catch us to early… Thats the fact…

Uuuh no, that’s not why so many Alliance players were doing premades. The premade exploits have been used for a long time in both retail (and pservers from what I’ve heard), and there was an opportunity to use it now. So they used it. Basically they did it because they could do it.

@Krustyburger-drakthul

Can pls someone explained me how can horde reach balinda or SH bunker faster then us, even we are 100% mounts?

Actually when both are running at MAX mount speed (riding speed glove enchant, mithril spurs and carrot trinket), both factions will face each other on the side of Balinda’s building. So the same is true for when both are just running on 100% without those things.

Which is an advantage for Alliance, not for Horde. Because Alliance has a closer GY than horde, which means the numbers lost in an evenly played out first PvP clash replenishes faster for the Alliance than it does for Horde. You lose when you don’t participate in that first fight though.
Player perception is what makes this seem like a “bad thing”, even though it isn’t. It’s just looking for reasons to not accept responsibility, and rather blame things that absolves themselves.

@Murrue-finkle

Not only because once we’re are locked north at ice bunker choke by horde, game is over.

This is just you losing in the PvP encounters, there’s a choke point at the IB gy flag as well which Alliance can also hold the same way. So that BG was effectively decided by the pace set in the first clash, and it remained unchanged since then.

[Murrue-finkle]

As if taking/defending IB for alliance was the same as taking/defending SH for horde.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Murrue-finkle

As if taking/defending IB for alliance was the same as taking/defending SH for horde.

Now you’re probably talking about the distance to the cave, which is why I’ll refer you to these posts:

@Bewarê-frostmane

And dun baldar is more fortified than FW keep, especially with NPC density as well as all the bunkers being harder to cap solo compared to all the horde towers.

There are pros and cons to both sides, and alliance have a closer GY to the area near balinda which is where you actually end up facing each other for the first time on mounts at max speed. Which makes it faster for Alliance to replenish their forces than it does for the horde, at the first clash, which basically sets the pace of the BG (very hard to reset in full force from this without extreme coordination unlikely for randoms to perform).

All in all, the BG itself is decided by the stronger collective force of PvP prowess (for lack of better term). It’s just that some people focus more on the extrinsic reasons, and doesn’t look at the whole map and compare the two sides, and rather just point out specific things like the Americana OP did, with clear bias by neglecting to mention the big picture of things.

In other words, some people doesn’t view it as being their own fault but rather the fault of something else which just so happens to remove all responsibility from themselves at the same time. Funny coincidence, right?

“I’m not to blame, the WORLD is to blame!”

@Bewarê-frostmane

You have to look at the map as a whole before you claim it’s favored for one side or the other, and to examine it in great detail from a game designer’s perspective.

If you want a truly proper suggestion, then moving the horde cave to where both at max speed meets up in the middle of middle would be the best place.

Not where it is in retail.

But then you’d probably complain about the SH gy being further away than the horde gy, but as already mentioned right now the SH gy is closer than IB gy to the first clash point on the map, from a design perspective.

You don’t see Horde picking up their pitchforks and claiming injustice over that though.

Or that alliance spawning in cave after SP gy is capped, can via ranged attacks shoot down anything that can’t make it up to them fast enough to hit them as a melee. Like rogues for example.

It goes on and on.

It’s also easier to lock horde in their starting cave than it is to lock alliance in theirs, since the travel distance is so short from IB gy to the horde cave, compared to the roundabout distance you need to run from SP gy to the alliance cave.

So in the end, it actually does come down to the PvP after all. The side that wins in PvP is the side that wins the BG. As simple as that.

@Bewarê-frostmane

A BG is fundamentally decided by the ability to beat the opponents in the PvP encounters. It’s just that simple. It sets the pace and everything simply snowballs from there.
What affects this are things like shamans being better at offensive gameplay while paladins are better at defensive gameplay, and the collective gear average of your team, as well as class & role setup of the team. It all affects this outcome.

@Bewarê-frostmane

And alliance gets ported to cave when sp gy is contested instead of to aid station.

So if there really are 20 people ressed at the same time in the horde cave, then it’s the same in the alliance cave. So horde gets 20 people ressing to def IB gy, while alliance gets 20 people ressing to def SP gy.

@Bewarê-frostmane

If they get wiped at sp gy then the mechanism of equipping the trinket isn’t going to be what decides if it’s a loss or not.

That instead indicates they either have too many on the offense (happens sometimes), or their ability to win in PvP was just never on par with their opponents’.
Hence, they had already lost by this point and thus turns it kinda irrelevant. It’s also easier for alliance to recap SP gy than it is for horde to recap FW gy.

@Bewarê-frostmane

You can’t solo them if you’re not a ranged player, when they’re upgraded (veteran is possible solo as a melee, but not champion).
I do agree the version of AV should be reverted to the version previous this one from vanilla though. With mines and stuff. It’s what enabled AV lasting for days when NPCs had a bit more ‘oomph’ in them.

@Bewarê-frostmane

By the way, are we just going to ignore how the ram rider instructor in the middle of dun baldar has its horde equivalent outside of frostwolf keep? (Part of that NPC density I mentioned earlier, including but not limited to the NPCs at the level below the hill up to the actual “keep” which you can avoid pulling by running on the side which is pretty simple as well as the NPCs to the right side of the tower in the middle of that hill up to the “keep”.)

[Murrue-finkle]

I know very well your wall of texts trying to claim everything you said is right, so i won’t even bother to argue with you

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Murrue-finkle

I know very well your wall of texts trying to claim everything you said is right, so i won’t even bother to argue with you

That’s not how the forums work, buddy. If you can’t present substantiated counterarguments, then you’re by default accepting it as so.

Also, it’s funny how some people seems to prefer the “twitter length” posts, only to serve as an echo chamber.
Unfortunately, not everything can be put into proper context with a single “twitter post”.

[Murrue-finkle]

The whole differences between IB and SH have been posted by OP on the first post, what would be the point of writting them down here again since you already decided to ignore them the first time?

[Syl-golemagg]

Dw all beware’s opinions are TRUU FAXX cus he said so.

Surely a person with such a massive love for logic and intuitive arguments would know the difference between fact and opinion?

I have nothing more to add, but you do like to twist things to suit your own narrative whilst accusing others of the same thing, sometimes you make great posts but others I just end up rolling my eyes because you’re being so hypocritical.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Murrue-finkle

The whole differences between IB and SH have been posted by OP on the first post, what would be the point of writting them down here again since you already decided to ignore them the first time?

Actually the OP’s skewed interpretations are also covered by those quotes.

@Syl-golemagg

Dw all beware’s opinions are TRUU FAXX cus he said so.

Oh no, don’t worry. They’re all just observations. Observations which anyone can feel free to try to refute. Unfortunately, I haven’t really seen many people even try to do so, the go-to reply tends to be “too long, didn’t read”, or putting up a straw man argument out of nowhere instead to make it look like it’s being refuted, or to just throw random insults.

[Bubblegunz-pyrewood-village]

Not only did you ignore them the first time, you ignored my when I asked you a question too… The answers to all your BS is in the first post and my LAST post too. thats a strat Beware, on the other topic you asked me why I can’t present substancial arguments, and when I have a full thread of them you bail out and argue with others who havn’t mentioned the things that I have (which is obvious they are not stupid to just copy/paste my stuff all over the internet) or you just ignore my post. Don’t know man, when In a hole stop digging comes to mind… I just am not sure how more immature you can get… srsly I think Tetris indeed is a more suitable game for you