Why AV is ruined at the moment! Why alliance can't win!

I have been a BG leader for some time. From the private servers I played WOTLK and TBC on, to now - in wow classic. Yes I know I am on a PVE server, because I can play 2-3 hours per day at most and I anticipated phase 2 will come out before I hitcap 60. I also didn’t remember I can’t switch to a PVP server once phase 3 comes out, so I am stuck here - oh well big deal. Lets get onto the topic.

My experience as PVP-er in WOW and some critical thinking and analysis of the map - has led me to some conclusion about AV and why it is ruined for alliance at the moment.

Before I begin, I realize Hordies will start to talk “sh*te” that allys are bad, awful etc. etc. and while that may be true - in current retail wow the highest rated pvp players in the top 100 are always ~50/50 split between alliance and horde, so trust me - there are good players on both sides!

Also - hordes, realize that you had a 49% winrate in AV when you cryed about allys being able to premade, so if we have a 15% winrate now, we deserve to be heard, so please don’t start hating, but maybe discuss what Iam talking about. I am pretty certain that you realize that it is not normal for alliance to lose 8 out of 10 games in AV - and lose badly, no matter how bad alliance is at pvp. At least somewhere, somehow a bunch of bad hordes should group up more than 15% of the time…

A lot of people from the horde side have tried to make the arguement that the intangibles are screwing over alliance. Things like - give-up mentality, whining, AFK’ing / losing on purpose etc. etc. I absolutely agree that alliance players like to whine, but so do hordies. You whined a bunch about facing premades when we could premade. People like to whine - so do I, although I try to not do it as much. However when you have a 83% winrate for hordes in AV there is obviously a bigger problem going on.

I have led over 100 AV’s just in classic so far. Before the changes I had a descent ~69-70% winrate as a leader and an overall 51% winrate premading. So basically I would win leading 7/10 games, but it would balance out when other peeps would lead - probably due to luck most of the time, not my immense leading skills. To be honest ~5 weeks before the change the meta - RUSH DREK was impossible. Hordes found out that if you whipe even just 25% of the alliance players by zerging into them, and trap them, you can win the game, as we have 0 gravyards south and we will wipe eventually and be born back at stormpike.From my experience 9/10 games that ended up with allys wiping meant a loss for alliance, no matter how hard we fought to regain ground from stormpike. Remember that statistic I will come back to it.

Because of that exact statistic I don’t believe the horde starting cave is an issue. Being a bit closer means allys are on the defending foot at the start, but that isn’t that bad. It means we should have an initial battle and in general, that isn’t so bad. So the starting cave is not the issue in my book its a PVP BG after all. Because hordies figured it out, alliance had to start doing the triangle strategy - taking all towers, moving slowly throughout the map - play it how it is supposed to be played. This allowed the horde to pull off a 49% winrate overall, which isn’t that bad if you think about it.

Now the changes occured and because you - the playerbase is a lot better than in vanilla, we could actually see how big the map imbalances are. On even footing we have one side dominate over 70% of the time… that is insane - absolutely insane. No matter how good / bad alliance players are, these are just odds that show something isn’t right.

As a BG leader my winrate has dropped down to 12%. I am probably going to leave the game if I am honest, it just isn’t any fun at the moment.

As a person who has played the game a bunch I would like to talk about the problems I see for the alliance faction, and why that happens. I will leave intangibles behind, and focus on what seems really unfair as map progression, and where I see the teams that I lead struggle against impossible odds. I will go progression by progression and hope you can follow along. Hordes I am certain you will realize and gain a better understanding as well, as to why you are no longer losing in AV. Lets have a civil discussion and not a sh*tstorm of people shouting at eachother that the opposite faction is bad. I concider myself an OKEY player, and if more players like me leave - it will become pretty old pretty soon in AV for you too hordies. So lets find a way to fix this rather than call out names and hate on each other.

1. Stonehearth vs IBGY disatvantages

See I have no problem with hordes arriving to mid first, because at the end of the day the story goes, that the dwarfs are trying to defend the valley from the horde pushing from the south. It makes sense in the lore. We can’t have a battle if we don’t have an agressor, so we surely need that.

The problems begin after the battle. If alliance win, and in my groups that happens 90% of time - the first battle that I lead (as I often defend balinda) we win it. We most often get to Galv, and in 80% of cases kill him. Afterwards hell begins for us. See IBGY has several unique advantages for the horde:

  1. Hordes don’t need to go through the flag to get out of the GY. They just dump down and go streight down. Well this alliviates the choke-point. When hordes push SHGY we are just choked out with nowhere to go.

  2. IBGY flag is facing south, and only a narrow passageway close to IBTW gets there. So this is a perfect choke-point for the horde. You can sandwitch us in the zone where the archers are shooting us, because you can drop from your GY down and push our backline. The next wave of horde respawners will push towards the IBGY flag and we often wipe. Now even IF we manage to not wipe and cap IBGY usually the last team of born hordies have jumped down already and are choking the IBTW passageway. The reason that is so effective is because while defending the flag -we cannot see that passage way and we cannot effectively defend IT And defend the flag as well. If we start chasing the “chokers” the hordies from FWGY will recap IBGY and if we stay at flag - other allies cannot pass, even if they go in groups of 10! So we are choked out - and we lose the battle no matter what we do. Furthermore getting from FWGY to IBGY is quicker than from SHGY, because allys from SHGY need to go through that passage way (the choking point) and they arrive at lower resources (hp/mana) since the archers have shot them a couple of times, even if there are 0 hordes there (which btw NEVER happens)

Now lets have a look at SHGY:

Hordes have 2 paths up from both sides of balinda - so no effective way to choke you out. You can push into respawn spot, and we have nowhere to go! Furthermore, even before you push - you can choke respawners out, with AOE spells, and we have no way to drop down and come arround from the back, or choke the revived hordes from IBGY which are trying to get there. It is an face to face battle with allies having the disatvange of being in a narrow pathway. There are no archers on your backs, no choke points - nada. There is just no way to survive a consistant push - especially when we are born in groups of 10. And when we die - its a 15-20 second LONGER path to get from Stormpike GY to SHGY, as opposed to being a shorter or similar distance as it is from FW to IBGY. This means that every ally grop that arrives - an equivalent of 1.5-1.7 horde groups of 10 people arrive at SHGY to fight. That is just unfair and we have nothing to do, but get pushed back!

So far - we get choked out at your GY and we get choked out at our GY. And it isn’t looking good for us. We can’t advance, we can’t defend properly. It is really hard to get IBGY, but keeping it for 5 minutes is even more impossible, unless 20 people managed to pass in the initial push.

The problem is - it gets worse as we dive further in.

Icewing Bunker Vs. Towerpoint

Next choking point is ICEWING BUNKER! See when you take SHGY there is not much we can do to take it back again. Simply because ICEBLOOD is closer than Stormpike. Not on the map, but remember how you can drop down from ICEBLOOD and go streight, where as we need to circle arround a huge hill to get arround from Stormpike? Yep - we travel ~15-20 seconds more than you do, so by the time we arrive at the battle, you have had ~15-20 seconds more to push us back and defend SHGY! Meaning the longer the battle continues the more YOU WILL push back rather than we can advance, because by the time 1 of our groups of 10 arrives, you have 1.7 groups of ten arrive, so in 10 seconds you will have 10 more people than we do there. As time progresses, you just overwhelm us.

Towerpoint is a potential choking point for the alliance. The biggest difference is that FWGY is a lot closer to IBGY than Stormpike is from SHGY. From Frostwolf you can arrive a couple of seconds sooner to crossroads than you can from Stonehearth to Iceblood. So in essence we are fighting spawners vs spawners at Crossroads, as its supposed to be, but we are fighting at a dissatvantage if Hordes take SHGY. Now lets get into the smaller dissatvantages of that zone.

See at Crossroads, you have 3 ways to get in - through Tower Point, through the pathway and through the burned down tower. You can continuously pressure the flagpoint at IBGY through casters at the burned down tower, and you can continuously pressure tower point through the outside. So if alliance are fighting at crossroads and a group ot 4-5 people jump from the burnt tower, we need to retreat to wipe you, or you might recap the GY if we continue fighting. By the time we have dealt with you - crossroads is back in your possesion and we need to push again into you - until we get IBGY. If we let you by, you will choke us at the chokespot, so that isn’t an option either.

At Icewing Bunker, as a contrast we have not 3, but only 1 way to get in. We can’t defend it from outside as you have the highspot on the bunker and we are going up a hill. We can’t push to take back SHGY from anywhere else except the narrow pathway next to the bunker. It is another CHOKING point that cannot be won.

Combining all that with the fact that our GY is further away than ICEBLOOD Gy is means we can’t defend it at all.

Stormpike vs Frostwolf

If alliance reach frostwolf gravyard we usually take it. Now frostwolf is as close to a fair battle as it can get. Its an open space, you respawn and push into us and we try to push back. Noone is sandwitched, we just have a battle through the forrest. Usually froswolf is not as defended if we reach it, so we take it by the sheer number of people that we have, I wouldnt say its by skill as i don’t know - thats an intangible I don’t want to talk about. Now lets compare it to Stormpike.

Stormpike has a corridor to the flag. You are born at a chokepoint again. The problem is, the advantage of the mountains are not to the people defending, but to the attackers. Horde can go up the cliffs and up the hills and start choking us more than we can choke them out because all the climbing spots face to the south. We can’t climb up the hils from the north and baricade the mountain - at all. While we get slaughtered, remember this is the 4th choke-spot so far for us, compared to 1 for the horde. Also adventurious hordes start to backdoor our base and take our bunkers while the others just farm us at the Stormpike respawn point. We are again on the backfoot and getting choked out.

The only saving grace you could say is the bridge. By the time you reach it though, we are born in the starting zone (the cave) and morale is low. Most people try to push south to get a couple of leightaunants before we lose. Even if we try to recall we cant as you usually have rogues waiting outside the cave to gank respawners who are alone. If we were to spawn at base when you take Stormpike - then the bridge could have saved us for a bit, but we don’t… and its a loss.

I think something should be done with the layout of AV. It is not fair to have 5 choking spots as a horde player, and have only 1 as an alliance and that being Crossroads. And even if we are worse players than the horde (which I doubt that you can make as a claim, but okey) we still should be able to get at least 4/10 games on average, and we should be able to fight back on an even planefield. In my mind Blizzard just ruined AV for the alliance, and a bunch of PVP players will just leave the game for good. I am probably one of them. I believe that premading allowed us to communicate as alliance and we were able to OVERCOME these shortcommings by having a small advantage of our own. Remember when I said that once we wiped south and came back to Stormpike we can’t do anything done further then that even as a premade vs a pug. Well there are 2 chokepoints between Stormpike and SHGY, so being in a premade, just doesn’t give enough of an advantage.

I hope this gets fixed soon, or I will go back to playing something else… I really hope we can get an even planefield and I want for both factions to have fun. Surely an 70+% winrate for one faction is not fun… and its approaching 80% fast.

I hope we can get some good discussions going on - enough of that blameculture BS, and alliance and horde fighting over who is better. We have good players on both sides. Lets get some ideas going on how to make it fun for both sides too!

Peace out!

  • Bubblez

While I do think that there should be a few changes, that doesn’t alter the experience, I still think that this is the problem arena solved. But think of it this way: If all alliance lose, it evens out the honor. If you get 5k per win it doesn’t matter when everyone else also get 5k. If you get 2k and other people get 2k, it evens out. 1:1 ratio is universal.

Alliance in AV from my experience earlier today.

  1. Afkers - easily 5-10 in each BG with nobody votekicking them.
  2. People give up way too easily.
  3. Fellow alliance players don’t stand and fight, they’d rather just run past you… whilst you’re fighting alone.

These 3 reasons alone make me not touch AV ever lmao.


This one, too many times have I engaged a solo ally only to have 2 - 3 other allies run right past him without helping him as I blow him up and then continue to pick off the next person that ran past him.

What even is that mentality?


Nothing will change until Blizzard properly punished afkers and allows 40 man premades.
Come on, we already moved away from Classic Perfect Immitation, at least do these small, procedural changes so we can have a good experience.


I do wonder how much it would impact the win/loose ratio if alliance had 40+ min queues for as long as the horde have?

In the beginning you said horde had 49% win rate when queues where minimal and alliance had premade and no queue, time has gone on and horde have slowly gained longer and longer queues and played against premade after premade which made them learn to act and react quickly to gain a win. Meanwhile alliance queue stayed minimal where you could play maybe 3-4 AV’s in the time the horde have been queueing so if the horde start to win the alliance are more likely to get the loss over and done with quickly and move onto the next 0 queue AV.

Now there isn’t premades in AV for ally so there is minimal control over who enters and who listens to someone using the brain and trying to guide the ally team. To which people try even less and just want it over with and to move on to the next.

You’ve also got to deal with most people are AV exalted now so there is less ally queueing now that everyone’s in WSG so ally being the lesser populated faction and now even less bothering with AV meaning you get left with the levelers/fishers/afkers and so on. Yea horde will have them too but after queueing for 40+min your more inclined to try harder.

There may well be map favours for the horde or many other legit problems which allow them to win more which I doubt will be looked in to or changed:/

Sorry, I went off a bit there but my main point is would win/loose rates be a bit closer together if ally had to queue for 40 min or if horde had 0 queue?


cross servers premades for all battlegrounds would fix all the problems


I am pretty sure someone will eventually come up with a strat to get a bit more honor from AV. The problem is I beleive it will be a waiting game, and an honor grinding game - not a game where you push for objectives and have fun! Possiblty it will be a strat which needs A LOT of coordination - which we can’t have anyway. I know how to have a chance (not win, just have a chance) in a premade, but now - no idea atm. I just know how to slow down our loss.

What pisses me off is that at first the strategy of Alliance was to get premades with 3/4+ healers. After the initial changes came we couldn’t get X number of healers anymore and a perfect composition, and we saw the win/lose ratio go to 60/40 for the horde. Why did they start to release hotfix after hotfix to remove ANY chance of at least 10-15 of us to get into the same BG, when we cannot now chose whether healers / dps / tanks etc goes in. That made 0 sense to me… and to me that change was a failure. A big one.

However we don’t have a bunch of streamers as alliance to talk about it, so we wount see any changes for ages now… Also there is 0, absolutely 0 effort given to ban bots and afk/ers in BG’s, but not allowing the 25 of us who actually play to have at least 50% of them coordinated was a major priority for Blizzard… c’mon really blizz?

Here are potential solutions:

  • 6 months BG deserter tag on BOTTERS in BG’s
  • Change the map a little is a potential solution
  • Allow 40 man cross-server premades if you want a easyer horfix than changing the map
  • Make the bracket for AV 51-59 and then 60 be separate!
  • Realease AB as well and try to balance the 3 BG’s out, not in HPH, but rather - in FUN. Only 1% of playeers are going for Grand Marshal’s, and the 99% of PVP’ers just want a fun freaking time. If Alliance gets less HPH, but I am having more fun - so be it, what’s the issue? The arguement - you don’t have any fun, but get the same HPH as horde is just bonkers to me. I don’t play the 15 year old game for honor, I play it for fun! I want more of that please! Getting more honor, but getting destroyed in BG’s isn’t fun - trust me…

Have you tried Snowfall > Van > IB bunker > IB GY > Tower point > FW > FW hut?
I might have missed something but I can’t see you talking about snowfall.
Also the mentality and afk/bot problem on alliance side. Every game you have 10% of AFK vs 5% or less afk horde, on top of that alliance has more botters with 2x more deaths than HKs and 0 kills who just have a path, runs into horde (or gets stuck because of the fears messing with path), dies, res, repeat.
Me as “fighter” against bots/afks I have noticed completely different problem with alliance. If both teams have 0 bots/afk, BG is just unpredictable. Once alliance has 4+ afk versus from 0 to 2 afks on horde, horde always win, when horde has more afks, alliance usually wins.

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like 40% of the allys are bots go figure…

Horde have 1 hour queue maybe they try harder to.


Tried snowfall - yes. While we are at Galv, usually it gets recapped though as hordies are LOOKING for fights. Even if I leave 5-6 people, we then get wiped at galv and SH is already taken so we spawn at stormpike. The 5 peps left at Snowfall can’t hold it for 5 minutes vs you guys. Only solution so far would be to fight at Snowfall and once its ours (after 5 min) go for objectives. Have been brainstorming strats a lot last 2 days, if I come up with something it would be good. Ty for your ideas etc :slight_smile:


Oh noes, so fears matters in AV :laughing:

I think my suggested path is an answer. Btw sorry for new meta, you can blame me, as I was one of those people who started encouraging “SH GY > Balinda” way before AV premade fix.
Oh boy so many people wanted me to commit sudoku because of this suggesstion and me always capping unprotected SH GY, and now I see people using my suggested strats, I had 4 macros explaining why it has to be done (nowadays meta).
Keep it up man, you might change meta, don’t pay attention to haters as I guess from my own experience, you have a lot of them in BGs.

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I agree with everything you said…
This one though I don’t understand why it was never like this anyway, someone might have an answer but it just doesn’t seem right for 51-60 to all be together.


thats why we “premade” , after the 1st fix we couldnt premade with perfect comps.
We could only mass Que for a BG but we at least knew barely no afk’s and bots because we filled our rooms.
Now its ridiculous, we start the game with 6 afk and 4 go straight to mines or fish


Also I see you want to kill Galv way too fast. Nowadays Horde meta we kill Balinda only when we get bunkers around, it’s the last thing we do before moving to SP. :slight_smile: We make sure we get bunkers and GY before going to Balinda. So if you will manage to keep SH GY and get Snowfall you will have very high chances to win a game. There’s a really long way for horde to reach snowfall. I believe that was also an idea of Blizzard when they created AV, you can see that horde and alliance reaches Snowfall at the exact same time which is a mid point of BG

you are not suposed to reach Balinda while we are MILES away from Galv


You’re not supposed to shoot through mountains while standing at SP GY…
Or you’re not supposed to reach SP GY res spot from your starting point while we’re miles away from FW GY from our starting point.


Yeah lucky horde bots only farm strat 24/7 or something…Without activision banning them even after we reported them.

I guess bots don’t like the queue.

huh dont get it?