Mistweaver buff request

Classes Monk
104

no, it’s not. you wave around your pro tips like it’s the holy grail and people are too stupid to understand but in reality the guides that came out with SL were just absolute garbage and people suffer for following them.
HP isn’t easier to play, the reason it performs better is because it actually works.
for a rank 1 player in a group of high rated guildies the shortcomings of a class mean the difference at +20 level but the same problems for an average player in a pug come out at much lower difficulty content. your “0.1% marginal difference” that you pulled out of your butt is as false and biased as your claims that MW is stronger than it was for a long time

if you mention the word “viable” again I’m going to bang my head against the desk.
a group of boosters just killed a boss with dead people in the group, therefore dead players are viable.

I’ll just keep typing here because I don’t care.
do you think blizzard are stupid? do you think if class balance was a simple matter of adjusting numbers, there would ever be imbalance in a game made by a multi million dollar company?
you can keep making up numbers for measuring an aspect of healing that cannot be quantified, but don’t expect anyone to take you seriously

105

your “0.1% marginal difference”

do you think world first guilds say “whatever” when they compare specs and see that one spec can do everything the other spec can do, but does 0.1% more damage for example? They absolutely do care about even the tiniest differences.

reality the guides that came out with SL were just absolute garbage and people suffer for following them.

Yeah the guides posted were not the best, I agree. However, that has nothing to do with how MW performs.

do you think blizzard are stupid?

is this a trick question?? are you actually insinuating that blizzard is not extraordinarily stupid? I have never seen a game company be so out of touch as blizzard. Have you seen how blizzard treats the people who give them feedback? not the forum dwellers, but the actual theorycrafters who are in direct contact with WoW devs? It’s disgusting to read.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/theorycrafter-apparently-exposes-how-blizzard-handles-community-feedback/195517

106

which proves there’s a difference between the viab- “goodness” of each healer class. it doesn’t say MW is only marginally worse. I don’t know what system they used to score healer performance, and neither do you. all we know is they chose not to use this class or druids. but for some reason resto druids aren’t setting their forum on fire because of this

if I were the dev in charge of class design and my boss walks up to me and says:
hey man, design some healers that have a wide arsenal to handle each situation but each class must feel distinct and excel in certain situations while being fully capable to handle a solo group in a dungeon and have immersive, unique mechanics that can be utilized by the worst player imaginable but not overpowered in the hands of a minmaxer. and the scaling of output must be consistent over the entire expansion and add some legendaries that can be combined and sometimes fundamentally change the playstyle in raids and dungeons we haven’t really designed yet.
I would do one of two things:
-make 5 classes each only having one ability called “Heal”.
-flip the table

I think blizz screwed up. I think the guy who designed the CHANGES to MW is not running +20 keys. I think the fact that blizz made a trend out of removing mechanics and abilities just to give them back later is proof the devs sometimes don’t understand why they were there the first place.
I’m not mad at them for making mistakes, I’m mad for leaving them unresolved

107

I agree blizz screwed up in some aspects, and they could for sure make changes to MW that makes it better to play (not better performing, but better to play). Ring of Peace and Mana Tea should be baseline, and I think an interrupt would be nice to have in m+. They should also make Upwelling better so Rising Mist isn’t just far better by default and they should make us less punishing. Now we’re treading into an entirely different territory that has little to do with what I am trying to say.

Did you read this post? Mistweaver buff request - #76 by Nasella-kazzak I think it sums my feelings up pretty nicely.

Limit Maximum himself said that the reason they did not bring a MW for world first race is because they don’t have a DR. I’d love to provide sources for all of this, but I honestly don’t have it in me to dig through twitch vods to find the exact moment that Max said X just to prove a point on a WoW forum.

resto druids aren’t setting their forum on fire because of this

Resto druid playstyle has been fundamentally the same for many years, so people already know how to play it. New players rarely whine about a spec because they usually know that they have nothing valuable to add to balance discussions. In Shadowlands however, Blizz significantly changed how MW is played in raids, and I think that for sure has something to do with it. None of the healer specs are super difficult to play, but Mistweaver has undergone big changes to our playstyle and we are too punishing if you don’t play at least somewhat correctly. People come from an expansion where they had Lucid Dreams and Claw giving them infinite mana, all while everyone in their raid having 70% crit or vers because by the time they started progging harder mythic bosses, everyone had full corruptions.

There’s a big difference between wanting changes to a spec, and saying a spec isn’t good enough or needs buffs.

Let’s go over the top 3 healers for a second. This part is important.

Paladins are overpowered atm because they do a TON of damage while doing decent healing and bringing aura mastery. If they nerfed their damage, they wouldn’t look as enticing anymore. However, DR is never bad so they would still be brought en masse.

Disc priests is amazing, but that is mostly due to the fact that pretty much every single boss has a big burst of AoE damage that hits the raid roughly once per minute. This makes Spirit Shell insanely good and can just downright trivialize some fights. Barrier is also insane, and on some fights it feels mandatory to have a DR. Oh, and they do a lot of damage.

Resto shaman does a lot of hps and they just never stop casting. They are so mana efficient it’s actually ridiculous. They bring Spirit Link which is arguably the strongest healing CD in the game, and believe it or not, Ancestral Protection Totem (APT) is extremely good for this tier. Resto shamans have like 5 CDs, and Earthen Wall Totem and Wellspring are both bugged in a way that positively affects their HPS. Not a single guild has killed Mythic Stone Legion Generals without either 2 holy paladins or 2 resto shamans. Why Resto Shaman? Because APT lets you sacrifice people to the Ravenous Feast that the Goliaths use to leap and just 1 shot people with, because the fight is overtuned. (paladin is for DR so people don’t get 1 shot, as it literally does 38k-ish dmg to non plate wearers if the add has 4 stacks, which it has. often.)

So you look at these 3 healer specs and go “wow, they have just about everything” and that is exactly the point of all this. This isn’t an issue with Mistweaver having or doing too little (our hps is = or higher than that of the other healers) and our damage is on par with disc priests for a lot of fights…) it’s the other healer specs having too much. Some parts of those specs really are due for a nerf, because it’s pretty clear that they have too many +'s and not enough -'s

As for MW, we don’t have DR or giga dmg or a free combat ress, and that is our downfall for the world first race and “top guilds” who copy-paste what the world first guilds do.

It’s those 3 healers bringing way too much at the same time. If they nerfed hpals damage, or if the tier wasn’t so perfect for spirit shell, or if shamans didn’t have APT, I guarantee you that you would see Mistweaver a lot more. This is a design failure that is caused by those 3 specs having everything.

But people see guilds stack these classes and go “mw bad” even though MW is actually very competitive. Like I said, we often have more dmg and healing, we just don’t have DR. Yes, DR is massive for some fights but it won’t make or break your guild, and having a MW will not hold your guild back outside of extreme cases.

So surely you can understand when I see Heroic raiders or people who just started Mythic whining about how “bad mistweaver is” when bringing a mw, holy, priest or rdruid is only considered bad in actual top 10 raiding guilds. Like even a top 50 guild will do just fine with a Mistweaver instead of that double shaman, 1 hpal and 1 disc comp they are running. It won’t make them drop ranks or add wipes to their count. What matters more than literally any comp you could run, is that people play properly.

I mean imagine if we got a 15% damage reduction on a 3 min CD. MW would just straight up be overpowered, because we already do more damage than most other specs, while pulling competitive healing.

108

Many people are watching videos like “SL healers ranked”. We are on the bottom only Holy priest is worst than us right now. I am talking about trying to pug something as a MW or just join for some keys ( Rated BGs). PUG life is hard as a MW. I can heal a +15 with pride or push hard on raids. I just want the game to be more fair. Tired of seeing holy paladins and resto shamans everywhere. The class need some rework. I recommend Mysticalls videos on youtube he talks about MW problems in PVP and PVE.

109

Ah yes, the “SL healers ranked” videos made by people like MadSkillzTV who are known in class discords for actively spreading misinformation

A rework I have no comment on, but it’s something I could see happening. The point is that MW is good enough to do every bit of content in the game (except for pvp, we’re garbage in PvP) and thinking MW needs a rework is an opinion so there’s no point in arguing with that. But people claim that MW is underpowered when it’s actually not. They act like it’s “just my opinion bro” that MW is somehow in a bad spot right now.

The only time you don’t want a MW is if your raid team is lacking a DR healer or if you are pushing world first. But for 99% of the peope playing the game, MW is a legitimately good class right now.

110

I became sceptic towards videos like “Healers rankings” they said that ‘MW viable in PvP in SL’. LOLD. I watched video about PvP, and decided to continue to main MW.

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111

XD I don’t know what to say. … :smiley: Even with 20% vers I can’t survive against rogues still.

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112

I won’t open a new thread for this since blizz won’t read it anyway so here’s the proof that MW is broken, just for you:

each class has an efficient style that’s almost covered by passive regen and an “overdrive” that’s limited by the buffer. (this is not a flaw, it’s by design). for monk, this has always been fistweaving, which provided a steady flow of chi and when you needed more or weren’t in melee range, you swapped to surging mist. I won’t go into the details but it was OP and blizz decided to remove chi in an attempt to balance it while keeping fistweaving as the cheap and sustainable style.
the problem is that it doesn’t fill the role mentioned above. it’s too high output in raids, low in dungeons, no control in multi-target situations and while other classes have this style as a baseline, we need talent(s)+legendary to utilize it.

the current MW is neither well designed mechanically, nor fine tuned (EM is 3000 mana. not 2750, not 3150, but an arbitrary 3k). it’s not fine, and it’s not all other healers that are OP.

I think most of the feedback on this forum is bad, because it’s easy to miss what the issue is. tuning the mana cost of EM and VIV is a half arsed solution, and what the class needs is a complete rework (preferably with chi) that gives us more control and multiple grades of mana efficiency

1 Like
113

What do you mean we don’t have control over our healing? The only time you don’t have direct control is when you use AtotM. Even then, you still cast vivify if someone is dying.

In dungeons you can run ToM as it’s basically as good as ATotM (not in raids tho) and it’s actually better on high keys.

If MW is not fine tuned, then how come the people progressing the last 2 Mythic bosses aren’t whining for a buff to the mana cost of EnvM? Or the people who are theorycrafting for the class or making guides for it while playing at a top 50 level?

I also did not say that all healers are op. It’s mostly shaman and paladin. Disc only seems overpowered because every fight is perfect for Spirit Shell

114

what you define as fistweaving is just turret healing supplemented by RSK+fishing for it’s procs with BK to trigger rising mist. this is the expensive, unsustainable style of MW.

I did progression with people who were too dumb to do proving grounds gold. “I was there” in a 20 man group is not something I care about.

if you see any flaws in my analysis above, feel free to share, but using the silence of others as an argument is meh.

115

what you define as fistweaving is just turret healing supplemented by RSK+fishing for it’s procs with BK to trigger rising mist. this is the expensive, unsustainable style of MW.

but it’s not expensive at all? It’s super mana efficient so where are you getting this from?

If you want a rework or changes to how the spec plays, that’s fine and it’s not really the issue. The issue is that people claim it’s somehow not good enough, even though it really does not matter for them. I just know for a fact that MW is fine and is more than good enough for 99% of PvE content, and is actually a pretty good healer overall when it comes to PvE.

116

originally the efficient vs expensive playstyle of mistweaver was about how you generate chi, which you then spend on vivify(uplift) and EM. after chi was removed and they were given a static mana cost, there’s no alternatives or efficient way to use them. any mistweaver who plays multiple healers will tell you it’s nowhere near as mana efficient as others

as I said 3 times already this is a terrible argument. for top players in top groups the shortcomings of a class come out at high content but average players in pugs suffer from them just as well in what you deem as low content.

btw you’re calling holy paladins OP because you’re used to making a crappy class work (speaking strictly of actual healing and keeping people alive, not raid utility)

2 Likes
117

any mistweaver who plays multiple healers will tell you it’s nowhere near as mana efficient as others

Silly statement considering you can just look at spellpower values and mana cost and disprove this statement. Sure, some parts of MW are not very mana efficient (envm on it’s own, vivify without 3-4+ ReMs up) but some parts of our kit are super mana efficient and cheap considering the healing they do. If they were to give vivify even a small buff like -10% mana, MW would be edging into the “OP” territory because we are already pretty strong. Our actual HPS and damage is good, we just don’t have a DR and that is the only reason we are not picked for world first race. On a sidenote, if Holy Paladin didn’t do insane damage, I doubt Limit would have used 2 hpals on Denathrius.

btw you’re calling holy paladins OP because you’re used to making a crappy class work (speaking strictly of actual healing and keeping people alive, not raid utility)

I call holy paladins OP because of their damage, and nothing else. MW literally does more HPS, less damage, and has less utility (immunities etc). Instead we have a ton of HPS with our CDs. True we don’t have AM, but we kinda make up for that with our AoE healing.

118

As the item level scaling goes higher and higher WM Monk becomes more powerless compared to other healers. I can never heal a M+ (10+) dungeon without hating myself and can never do arenas this is absurd enough. Atleast i was doing pretty good in raids but with the scaling every other healer who has an idea is doing better thn me even with basic understanding. This is really becoming unplayable. In arenas i am OOM while the enemy healer is still have a lot of mana to play around (if it’s paladin or shaman they are at 90% when i’m OOM). We definately need some buffs of some sort. They are nerfing op classes time to time but still no adjustment for MW Monks since the beggining.

1 Like
119

no one liked my post :frowning:
Do you think something as simple as :

after casting essence font(EF) your 1st Vivify is free?

I think this would help us out a lot, especially in M+ where every time I cast EF i feel bad for doing it.
I would also really like to see:

ReM being able to be cast on your target while channelling SooM,

a nice QoL I think, kinda like we can do with Expel harm but actually useful to use!
the only other thing i’d like to see if that

casting Life cocoon also applied ReM and EnvM to the target

that’ll be nice to have.

Peace Out

120

after casting essence font(EF) your 1st Vivify is free

No, no reason to make EF stronger than it already is.

ReM being able to be cast on your target while channelling SooM

Yes, 100%

casting Life cocoon also applied ReM and EnvM to the target

also yes

121

Except there is data that backs that up: Your spellbook, and there’s no utility in it. You’re looking at things through the lense of HPS

I mean it’s quite simple, how many monks are represented in cutting edge content? Basically none. Because a shamman or pala does the same HPS and brings more tools to the table

You say raid composition only matters in mythic. Yet when you look at cutting edge mythic guilds they don’t go near monks.

So where are monks supposed to be viable, guilds pushing for that sweet world 200-1000 bracket? And any higher or lower it doesn’t matter?

Check monk representation on mythic sludgefist on warcraftlogs

14 of them when I looked last week

But yes, purely through the lense of HPS they are ‘ok’. Mana is also ‘ok’ so long as you aren’t running tear of morning / upwelling

M+ Mana is absolutely a problem hands down. Again, rio data backs up what everyone is saying

And you can cut the condescending get gud nonsense. 6/10 is a nothing burger. So chill out

3 Likes
122

As for my opinion on how to buff the spec.

Basically +100% damage. On par with pala.

Reduce the Mana cost on enveloping and
vivify

Rest of the spells are fine

Pvp, life C while stunned as others have said. As well as fort brew, dampen, diffuse.

Reducing the Mana cost on single target heals fixes the pvp / m+ underperformance

Buffing damage adds back the util that monks are supposed to have had since MOP. While also bringing more to m+/pvp

Monk has been RJW / essence font (or uplift spam) since 5.2. Its fine where it is in terms of raid healing.

Buffing single target Mana cost makes using the essence font mastery effect an actual thing in raids also. While also allowing for big Yulons without relying on an innervate. Overall a more diverse playstyle by reducing the penalty for pressing those spells

3 Likes
123

Basically +100% damage. On par with pala.

Reduce the Mana cost on enveloping and vivify

:thinking:

If you do this, MW will be the best healer in the game by a mile.

“100% damage increase, on par with pala” without realizing that the only reason Paladin is brought so often is because of their damage and that it’s insanely overturned. You want MW to do 3-4k DPS while doing a ton of HPS.

Except there is data that backs that up: Your spellbook, and there’s no utility in it. You’re looking at things through the lense of HPS

Not quite true. I’ve also spoken about our good damage (not as good as hpal, but still good) and our mobility + survivability.

So where are monks supposed to be viable, guilds pushing for that sweet world 200-1000 bracket? And any higher or lower it doesn’t matter?

Did you read a word of what I have written? Literally anywhere outside of WFR

M+ Mana is absolutely a problem hands down.

I have no issues in 17/18’s. Might be because of prideful, but I have no issues with mana.

I mean it’s quite simple, how many monks are represented in cutting edge content? Basically none. Because a shamman or pala does the same HPS and brings more tools to the table

Also went over monk representation earlier. Unless monk is brought for a world first race it will not be a popular spec. Even if it is brought, it won’t be as popular as you think.