The point is that WPvP has no rules. That’s what makes it unstructured, and what makes it fun. Some people need rules (i.e. fairness) to have fun, others enjoy the fact that there are no rules.
And before you start with the Horde tears, both factions get plenty of “unfair” ganking.
Warmode is entirely optional. There is no need for anyone who needs the structure of end-game PvE or Arena / BG PvP to take part.
No that’s not the point.
That would be a point if all things were equal.
But when unfair incentives are offered to one side alone which makes it worthy of their time to participate and for the other side it’s just a waste of time, because they get nothing out of it. That’s skewed by design.
But basic concepts like this are hard to grasp. Apparently. Or maybe you just have an interest that things stay as they are
There’s no way to make the WPvP player base balanced between factions unfortunately. Blizzard had to do something, otherwise there’d be no point to Warmode. Choices are either live with it, or stick to BGs and Arenas where player balance is baked in.
Yeah no, not buying it, there’s a lot more they could do. It’s math, there’s always a middle ground.
With that belief in mind, at this point i’m actually leaning towards WM being a story tool, ie. Zandalar under attack, king killed, it fits the narrative that there’s imbalance atm on that continent, that horde feels like hunted.
So basically, you want the 20% more experience with PVP flag/ War Mode,
but you want none of the disadvantages.
Math does not have a middle ground, only solutions or no solutions.
The only problem I think we are facing are players not being honest enough.
The national tv station in my country made a questionare about 20 years ago, here they asked people what they enjoyed and wanted to see more of.
Naturally, everyone wants to look like they are intellectual and cultural beings, so they crossed of every option they could that made them look smarter.
The tv network looked and revised those answers, and made the program after peoples wishes… And every one got mad, nothing was what it used to be.
Because they removed most of the mindless, fun and useless stuff that everyone wanted to watch 
I believe this is a similar case.
They have gathered information about what people want, and this is the solution based on those information people gave them.
And then it went in the opposite direction of what everyone really wanted.
With all due respect, i disagree.
I think it’s 2 values, alliance players number and horde players number. Those two values do have a middle ground, give or take fractions of a percent.
Of course things aren’t so clear cut as that, as they have to be balanced across a wide array of shards but imho this are just variables that merely raise the complexity of the solution but not prohibit it.
2 values are still a solution!
But we are NOT talking about math… We are talking about people.
They move most numbers with every little variable
Idk, i think us being people has nothing to do with Blizzard being able to cut a line down the middle and make better balance rules that govern shards.
Then let me try it in a different way.
Did you read my little anecdote or did you just read my math-solution sentence?
Because, the devs change everything based on something.
But what?
If you read in the pvp section, every poster in that section is Thé Best pvper on their realm - they can kill every party even when they are 5v1.
In the story forum, every poster is the best when it comes to this - their opinion regarding any story changes matter - becasue they know best.
On Argent Dawn and Roleplay forum is Thé Best roleplayers, they know everything about the immersion feeling regarding this game.
and I could continue ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
So if everyone on this forum is the best, and we assume (because we are told they do) they read this forum, what should they change to make people stay?
If you were a dev for one day, what would you change?
I have read a 1000 times the devs play too, so what if the changes is based on 1 or 2 players wishes, like those we see on the forum on daily basis?
My list of points was my response to you saying my argument was stupid. I want you to go through my points in that comment, and tell me why it’s stupid. Quoting the actual point I made.
It’s not a trick, I’m interested in how you respond to each point. Can you? You might be so fixed in your opinion that it’s impossible for you to respond.
I’d like to see that too, I think WPvP has room to grow if it’s used imaginatively. I’m not against Warmode having additional elements. But the truth is, I love the randomness of WPvP. Just now I was on a shard where Horde must have outnumbered Alliance 3 to 1 in the FA area. We Alliance were getting ganked all over the place non-stop, the WQs were being camped etc, but I still got kills and still completed the WQs and FA. That was more fun for me than being in the overwhelming majority ganking Horde. Obviously a roughly 50-50 split would be best, but there’s only two ways that can happen:
Horde players start WPvPing as Alliance
Queues for Faction Assaults
I don’t want the second and I can’t make the first happen…
I was being a little flippant before, but the chaotic nature of Warmode really is exactly what appeals to me. I don’t want learn boss mechanics and run them over and over until I have them perfected. I don’t want to re-run the same PvP instances over and over again. The fact that Warmode is sometimes unfair for Horde, and sometimes unfair to Alliance is what I like about it. That I can get home after a hard day’s work and log into WoW and head to a FA and have no idea whether I’m going to be zerging Horde or in a running 50 / 50 battle, or if I’m going to be dodging the Horde raid to get the WQs done - that makes WoW interesting.
Not everyone’s cup of tea, true, but WoW has many aspects to it and I doubt there are many players who love every different part of it.
Dont bother mate, they dont understand. As much you would try to explain, they keep their ideology unchanged: alliance has lesser numbers active in wpvp, therefor they deserve “gifts” .
Yea, i remember the last AOO quest: full raids of alliance players atacking and camping horde hubs in Zandalar and 60% of where alts with 250 ilvl or below. Next week, when AOO was off, maps empty.
It isnt fun. Thats the ideea. Where is your feeling of acomplishment, when you go gank a lonely horde with 4 allies by your side? Where is the feeling of acomplishment when you have a lvl 110 druid, with 250 ilvl and you join a raid during AOO quest, and you do nothing, just stay afk and receive quest count?
It seems that only the alliance say this line : “others enjoy the fact that there are no rules” .
Rules are made to balance and bring fun. Chaos brings frustration and hate. Thatswhy, when i quest in Legion or Pandaria, i kill any alliance i see. Out of revenge and hate i have. Real hate.
Here we go again, another retard with the same line : “wm is optional” . Really mate? Are you serious?
Why there is not? The number of players exist. Total playerbase in EU region is splitted in 51% horde and 49% alliance. So the players exist. Why they dont activate WM is the question? Can you answer this? Or you will start like Vaeyn bringing other stupid arguments to the table?
Yea, and they did the worst think possible: bribe a comunity to play a mode that clearly they dont want. Why? We dont know…maby noobs? Loosers? Cowards? Who knows…
Mate you are annoying. Retards like you make me hate even more the alliance players. You cant even bring a normal answer…only craps like : “disable wm if you dont like” …really?
We want all PVE bonuses to be removed permanently. PVE rewards should not be in PVP content.
We want only honor/conquest points as reward. No pets!!! No toys!!! No gear!!! No transmogs!!! No world quests bonuses!!! Nothing!!!
Only HONOR and CONQUEST.
This way, the maps would be filled only with players that like world pvp and that have a clue about it.
I am tired of allied noobs that activate WM just for bonuses and when i see them on the maps they run like hell or log off. I want to play a decent world pvp with people that have at least medium knowledge and will to do it.
What we have now is pure chaos, noobs leeching wpvp content, 120 lvl noobs that dont know how to kill a shaman in ghost wolf and come on forums to complain how OP the shaman is…and so on.
Mate, since i know you on this forum, 4 months ago, you reply with the same answers:
-wpvp has no rules
-if you dont like wpvp disable WM
-its fun
…
What you dont get it is the big picture.
Ok i will answer your questions, point by point and then you answer my questions:
There are no ethic rules in WPvP WoW’s manual. But there are ethics that we humans respect, even if they are not written in any “manual” , “rule book” or “EULA” . That is part of our nature, to behave ethically between ourselfs.
Subject with i detailed above, yet, you ignored to see it .
This isnt a made-up rule invented by individual players. To know how behave in a game and not to be a as#hole is a virtue. Thatswhy, in our real life and also in our “gaming” life, there are some unwritten rules that usually the majority obey. Its about “self-ethics” .
Agree with a certain limit. Yes, i agree that 2 enemy parties to fight eachother, even if one party is outnumbered. But when you camp a corpse and you harras a player for multiple times, than that is a abuse. I agree with ganking, with 2v1 fights, and so on, but i dont agree with abuse. I agree that a ally raid to go hunt horde players on the map. But i dont agree to turn it into a 8h hunt and to keep a entire zone under siege, like it happend in the past.
This word : “ABUSE” , it seems the alliance cant understand.
They accepted the consequences because of rewards. Remove them all, and lets see how many will accept theese “consequences” ? Agree?
Therefor, i wanted to insult you, but just for the sake of diplomacy i wont.
Please, dont repeat the same thing, over and over again. Its really annoying.
…
Now answer my questions:
I would love to see if you would say the same if the horde would get for 2 months, each week the AOO quest. I bet that you would disable WM.
Thanks for the response.
The key word you said was ‘but’. When there are no rules, you want to create rules. It’s not your place to create rules and bully other players if they don’t follow your rules.
Your limit is not going to be the same as other’s limits. That is why player rules are not relevant to other players. IRL we have laws that apply equally to everyone. In WM, there are no such laws. Everyone is free to behave as they please.
If you are so ethical and concerned with abuse, why abuse forum members and get banned for it? Is that ethical?
Doesn’t matter why they accepted the consequences, every player has slightly different motivations. That’s their concern, not yours.
Because disagreeing with me is disagreeing with Blizz, who I was only quoting? They made the game, we play their game, they designed it deliberately so that players could opt in or out. Blizz’s own support article says turn off WM if you don’t want PvP.
We don’t know the numbers with WM on. Even if you are correct, the balance in region only matters when it comes to having as few overflow shards as possible, which affects Horde.
Fun is subjective. You cannot explain fun to someone that doesn’t see that as fun. Many do find it fun, and the game rules state that it’s acceptable, not abuse. The victim has options to avoid the situation, that’s what matters.
Same as above.
Hey, you don’t like being subjected to these behaviours. But you chose for it to happen, when WM on. You accepted the consequences.
Dude, it’s just a game.
Vaeyn, however i would try to explain you what normal is, your brain cant comprehend it. You and CoolioSlave are the only ones on this forum who see the current WM perfect, yet the WM forum section is full of complains and not even ONE post (AT LEAST ONE!!!) that praise Blizz what a good job they done with WM. And this is enough proof that everything i say, at least 50% of it, its true.
Everything i would say, you find a idiot answer that doesnt fix nothing or help and even more, it pisses people off. You come with thoose “elevated” and “diplomatic” answers and you “quote” Blizz so that you can bring Blizz’s quotes in your defense, like that means that if Blizz say’s its ok, everyone agrees.
Any way to convince you i try, its hopeless. It doesnt matter that on WM forum section are 1000+ posts full of complains and discontent, only you have right.
I give up, i am sorry, i thought that trying to convince a retard is easy, but it seems its not.
Its a game that i like and love and its destroyed piece by piece. In the end, if they (Blizz) continue on current path, WoW will end to be free-to-play model. They already lost 15-20% of playerbase and retail will loose more once classic will release. Already we wait 3h+ to join a epic BG, later we will wait 1 day.
…
I am tired…its a pitty. Its really a good game.
i have to agree with moothilda here im afraid. blizz could do something, but then how the playerbase reacts determines the outcome. eg. WM in 8.0. most alliance turned it off and horde had no one to fight. then they changed the buff rewards and gave the kill quest, and loads of alliance started ganging up on smaller numbers of horde, so horde turned off wm.
its like a pendulum. it will be balanced only for as long as the pendulum is at that point. the moment it swings back, things go out of wack again.
the overall problem seems to be that most people who pick alliance toons dont seem to like pvp, or are not too great at it. if this is because of racials, or rp (wanting to be a human/dwarf/elf) i dont know. but in an open environment, balance just is not possible. it happened in WG, TB and ashran. balance only lasts as long as it does, until a large group of players decide they want to wpvp at that time.
i still cant get my head around this 
but IF they do play, yeah you are right. maybe they are making the type of game THEY want to play?
its nothing about being dramatic or not understanding a joke. it just wasn’t funny :s
again, you can not be, as my direct observation 100% disagrees with yours, that is, that i face the same problems weather i play alliance rogue or horde rogue. and lvling an alt to get heritage is not the same as actually partaking in activities fully on either faction. i have leveled 3 monks to 111. doesn’t mean i have a clue how to actually play a monk.
most of that i agree with, especially penalizing players for attacking lower level. i wouldn’t say ilvl though. and also i agree that having rewards in activities that are not that actual activity is a bad idea. why on earth is azerite being rewarded for doing a pet battle?
i disagree with your first suggestion though, as turning on and off WM has a soft CD already and as such wont change anything: you can only turn it on in sw/org, and you must go to an inn to turn it off.
blizz needs to remove the pve buff from WM, though the downside of this is lots of people will turn WM off then. but then again, those people didn’t want to pvp anyway, they just wanted the buff reward.
If anyone wants to give my WPvP Ethics Challenge a try, I’m interested to see how ethicists perform.
24hrs later
The first quote was a example. The second quote was what i do in the last weeks.
I changed my “forgiving” and " kind" atitude because i was forced to change it. I learned from the best: our enemies. When this happens on daily basis, at a certain point you get sick of it and you want revenge. And since nobody is acting like me i decided to act as others act against me.