So when warrior nerf in arena?

Classes Warrior
63

Because aside from Warbreaker giving DW and Cleave no longer replacing Sweeping Strikes nothing has changed despite many, many, MANY reports of how the current state was deeply unsatisfying for PvE. This is based on every theory of activity execution and construction. While some people might like it subjectively, objectively playing Arms in PvE ticks off about every box in “this is a bad activity”. While in PvP all the things that make it problematic in PvE make it incredibly superior in PvP.

And it’s only going to get worse from here on. And this is mathable. I’ll use the interaction between OP and MS for this example.

If MS right now deals 4k damage, with nothing else applied, then a +40% damage increase is a 1.6k point increase.

In two patches time, MS deals 7k damage. Then exact same +40% increase is now a 2800 point increase.

Nothing itself has changed about the buff. The buff itself is the same +40% it was before. The only thing that has changed is the base value according to the principles of Skinner’s Box.

It’s relatively easy to set up a situation where multiple of these exponential modifiers are stacked, at least Blizzard changed them from being multiplicative to addictive, in PvE this would be a loss of DPS as you’d have to break your rotation to do so. In PvP your rotation can easily be outhealed, unless you use cooldowns, so you can toss DPS out the window as what matters is the beefy hits, at least for use since we attack slow in the first place. So you want to make the next hit as impactful as possible, at least if you’re going for the kill.

Other classes can only do this by aligning abilities that all have a long CD. Arms can do this consistently instead. The longest cd is Avatar and having to sit that one out is no great loss.

If I have to give a value to what’s being done objectively in the design of Arms I would say it was nuts. Exponential modifiers already have no place in an MMO, and the ARms spec is heavily built on them.

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So you were playing warr, switched to DH and now you are complaining about warr. If it’s so “superior”, why don’t you simply go back? Okay let me guess: as DH you can kill every similar geared warr you see… if he is not healed. Am I right? :slightly_smiling_face:

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Lol, DHs are rubbish at anything PvP-related other than running flags and guarding nodes, both as Vengeance. Even with a healer Havoc is way worse than Arms in PvP.

DH runs into the opposite problem. They’re also dependent on exponential scaling since their main secondaries are Haste and Versatility. So they’re underpowered right now for anything other than tank-related PvP stuff. I expect them to be on par in 9.3 since if they were on par in 9.0 they would be massively OP in 9.3. What they lack is the exponential setup that Arms has.

And I never claimed that I was “superior,” you claimed that I implied that. All I did was pointing out the mathematical flaws that are only going to be exacerbated as SL goes on. You seem to have unwavering faith in the devs from what you express.

You forgot a couple of things.

  1. They’re only humans and as such, they’re liable to be just as biased as anyone else, none of them seem to have any education in the scientific method which would at least make them aware of this and make them question their process. Point in case, Arms since Legion. The Mastery in Legion, BfA, and SL has one thing in common, it’s been focused on reducing the direct jousting damage capabilities of Arms by inventing various ways to reduce direct damage. However, Arms in all iterations also had to at least be competitive in PvE so there were a lot of setups that had to be applied in order to get off that big hit. This makes them viable in PvE and makes them stupidly good in PvP. As I said, DPS in PvP means less than delivering a hard hit when you’re armed with a two-hander. Meaning that you can afford to do the setup needed without suffering a serious performance loss, if anything doing so improves your performance.

  2. All of them seem to think linearly. None of them seem to have any ability to think beyond the process of A to B, despite the process being A to B to C to D to E, or how many patches there are in SL. People who can think abstractly have issues doing linear thinking, however, they can go directly from A to E and take in surface-level actions done in the interim steps and map out the exponential effects of how they affect E. Both are needed to work together to have a good design of anything. The reality is that often those who think linearly force those who think abstractly out since what they say goes against what they themselves believe is how things will pan out. Ion has done this before. Pretty much all the feedback of the BfA beta was ignored in favour of his vision, and it played out to the almost exact letter that the feedback said and thus had to be reworked. It was so bad that I fully believe that Ion got a talking to from higher up since he did a 180 between BfA and SL and even then he still ignored some feedback to satisfy his vision. One example is the low amount of Anima you get. Many people gave feedback that a little fit the narrative, however, this was too little. And they were right, no one gives a toss about the narrative when they’re doing something for the fifth time. Gameplay > Narrative in an MMO, Narrative > Gameplay in a single-player. Ion seems to want to make a single-player game, Ion needs to be fired from WoW for gross incompetence.

If you think that it’s bad that people complain about Warriors now, just wait until you see the rightful complaining in just a few patches. It’s never been as bad as it is now.

66

You don’t play a warrior, you play a DH and you say they are bad in arena with all of their mobility and burst damage with Hunt, and also you complain about warriors, which demon hunter deals very well with.
You must be outta your mind

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Arcana, I really like your energy and urge to discuss details. But now you are pretending you don’t understand what I asked :slightly_smiling_face:

Btw as I can see SL, it’s the best for me, casual Arms, since like WoD. For gear we do not depend on RNG, there are vendors and honor/conquest points again, woo hoo. Arms can kill stuff again, yeee. That’s about it :grinning:

And something else about Arms. Afaik it’s the only spec completely without some kind of self healing, yes? So it’s reasonable to compensate elsewhere, don’t you think?

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Warriors don’t need a nerf in arena.

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69

You’re 100% correct, and I did so deliberately since a clear “yes” or “no” question in that context is a “gotcha!” So I’'d rather explain how utterly wrong the nature of the question was.

Ah, you only have WoD to compare with. I have WotLK and Arms in that was leagues better in feel. Once there’s a WotLK Classic swing around and broaden your perspective.

What you’re doing is making the assumption that cars can only go 20 km/h since only cars that can travel max 20 km/h exists in your world-view. Your pool of knowledge is too small. Expand it before you make determinations. While WoD was dire, the WotLK playstyle hit off just about every point for what makes a good activity.

No, it’s still unreasonable. I would rather have self-healing and be able to do things with the same ease as everyone else, instead of lacking it and being stupidly OP when doing it with a healer. WoW is designed around being able to play it solo. Arms is by far, objectively, the worst class solo, unless the activity is short and you have BS and DbtS ready.

It would also stop people complaining so much because performance would be more consistent instead of having two distinct states depending on the context. And the backlash from the devs is going to be dire once they decide to act. And they will, they’ve done so in the past, so they will again, and every time they’ve overreacted.

I knew this argument would be brought up. VENGEANCE can deal with Arms solo since it has loads of self-healing. Havoc is the one spec that’s easy pickings for Arms.

You’re correct. They need a major redesign though.

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And you still prove that you dont know what youre talking about.
People that actually play warrior like their design and feeling in this expansion and you, playing a dh, are saying they need a redesign.
What is it that harms you so much in the fact that warriors are in a good spot?
Btw, a good Havoc destroys arms.

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Truth be told Arcana I get your point but you are the only person not happy with arms current design.
You’re the only one whose « inconsistency of MS damage » bothers.
I personnaly like to « work toward a big MS » for me that’s what arms is about.

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Your argument rests on an appeal to an authority, which makes it fallacious and empty once you go deeper into it.

In this you express that you’ve actually done no reflection on this, react emotionally, and have no idea on how human psychology work, you have anecdotal, conscious belief on how your own psychology works. Which is a bias since it’s objectively wrong.

And I know that while happy people never complain I’ve seen far more complaints about Arms than I saw in BfA. And depending on which side of the handle the person is on Ams is either too weak or too strong. And both arguments are correct. Arms is too weak in PvE and too strong in PvP.

The only thing I’ve seen people praise Blizzard for is going back to front-loaded damage. Else it’s a litany of “Arms too weak, please buff,” and, “Arms too strong, please nerf.” Going into the threads all the ones talking about how they’re weak are PvE-related and all those talking about that they’re too strong are PvP-related. This is a pattern.

I’ve literally seen no one praise Blizzard for the reality of Condemn being up to 50% of the damage done in PvE. I’ve seen plenty of threads that asks for this to be changed.

Good spot where? In PvP? Because PvE is dire (Mythic CN DPS rankings)(). That’s the state of Arms DPS once all conditional modifiers are removed. Being good in an AoE situation means nothing when you’re bad at single-target.

And I worry because I know exactly where this is leading. Being too good in PvP is going to come back and bite Arms hard when Blizzard invariably overreacts. And Blizzard has overreacted many times in the past. This is a proven track record as it has happened in the past. The only chance is that the new guy can tell them to hold their horses, though given how Ian Kompetentoss has acted in the past I’ve no high hopes of him actually accepting it.

What I notice is that you attach value to Havoc as a good player while leaving out a similar value judgment of the one playing Arms. This makes this statement both useless and intellectually dishonest. Is it a good Havoc player against a good Arms player? This is the 3v3 leaderboard for EU arena. I had to go to page four to find the first DH, rank 352. I also found the first Warlock at rank 322, just for comparison.

Your anecdotal value assessment means nothing when the objective data shows something else. Unless you mean in the open-world 1v1, in which case, there are so many conditional modifiers that it’s impossibly to think of them all.

What you see is that I’m one of the few who can verbalise exactly what the issue is, and that’s due to my field of education which works specifically in analysing how things that people do work. There are plenty of people expressing that Warriors are bad without being able to verbalise exactly for what reason.

I’ll give you some advice. Stop using hyperbolic arguments when all one need to do to disprove them is to look at the forum beyond a surface level.

And you’re so close to figuring out what makes Arms so good in PvP and at the same time being bad in PvE, and right before the finish line, you stumble. In PvP, you can set up the big MS and improve your performance, in PvE, you lower your performance if you do.

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English isn’t my mother language and the semantic you use is uselessly complex, but you’re basically telling us that you consider yourself as the only player having enough education to verbalise arms « issue » right ? And everyone happy with arms, as I am, is some kind of stupid that can’t think by himself nor explain why he is happy ?

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Casually speaking arms feels so good to play and i think is one of the few spec with an identity.
No self healing? Thats perfect for a fooking warrior , if you want to self heal i think you should pick another class .
No ‘‘survival’’ , just mitigation? and wheres the problem? A proactive kind of play fit the warrior theme perfectly .
Damage relies on MS modifiers? wow , thats totally an unexpected thing for a slow 2h swinger big boy with an iconic ability called mortal strike. Maybe you want more little yellow numbers flash on your screen?
consistent damage and little to no heavy burst cds? again … wheres the problem?

You want every class to be top dog pve/pvp , every class be able to do everything , its because people like you that this game became an infinite pool of greyness and every spark of color that comes out of it you want to redrown in greyness again . that mentality is dull , you’re dull. A class can still be enjoyable even if its not top dog pvp and pve , poor this mmorpg :frowning:

PS:Sorry for my english <3

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As I seem to be the only one playing a Arms that’s simultaniously educated in occupational therapy and someone who thinks abstractly, yes. At least from what I’ve read of complaints and suggestions. The thing is that what they suggest would in no way make Arms into a spec that followed the guidelines set down in the Zone of Proximal Development when it comes to practicing an activity.

The problem is that every other class/spec has them. Which means that the game can either be balanced around those, in which case it’s too hard for Arms to do the same things as they can do, or be balanced around what Arms can do, in which case it’s too easy for everyone else. Which of the two possibilities makes the most sense to balance the game around?

That’s literally impossible, someone will always be the top dog even if the difference is only by a hair’s breadth. And the only one saying that I want that is you. This makes it a strawman designed to make me look ridiculous and you look good in comparison.

This is ad hominem. You’re welcome to pose counterarguments. The moment you go after my person instead of what I say, then whatever argument you already posed is irrelevant. You only serve to poison the well retroactively.

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Ha, this explains a lot, have a good day.

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we have good mobility ( without taking into account the stupid thing called condemn)
we have good damage mitigation with low cd , spell reflect on low cd . I think arms warriors are quite tanky on their own.
good consistent damage and a mini burst on low cd
we have super good team utility
wtf are you crying for more? If you prefer to play with a big burst cd / big defensive cds you have the option to pick another class .

PS: this has nothing to do with the conv , but as an italian man , born and living in Rome who have studied latin since youth ,every time someone on the internet start to use random latin … i dont know how to translate ‘‘locuzioni’’ , maybe ‘‘phrases’’ the meme ‘’ Do Not Cite the Deep Magic to Me, Witch ‘’ comes to my mind :’)
The fact that someone would want everything homologated and dull in a mmorpg is the big problem that leads to thoughts like yours , dull thoughts coming from a dull mind , without offence .
PPS: sorry again for my english <3

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Ad hominem is the term used COMMONLY for an argumental fallacy. These are 15 commonly used ones. You just look like a twit now for mentioning the saying since it’s a subconscious attempt now to look superior and by the context of that making me look inferior.

And this is where the link I posted comes in handy as you use a strawman fallacy there. I never said that or anything that even implied it. You’re the one that uses language that makes it seem like I did.

This is another strawman fallacy since once again, I never said or implied anything even remotely like this. I like that Arms has endurance when backed up instead of just burst. I wish other classes were designed around this to rein in the ridiculous burst that’s in the game and essentially makes people into Three-Minute Wonders. What I dislike is the utter inconsistency of Arms where the gameplay with and without a healer is so markedly different. No other spec has this.

And if you have to say “without offense,” It’s a sign that you subconsciously do mean offense since by saying is you draw attention to something that was never there before. It’s like someone saying, “I’m not a racist but…” Everyone then knows what comes after is racist af. There’s no reason to even qualify that if that’s true. It’s just fake virtue signaling.

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That’s not really an exponential growth. You increased the MS damage by 50% (from 2k to 3k), and because Overpower increases damage by a percentage, you will also see a 50% increase after adding Overpower (from 2800 to 4200).

A constant increase (as opposed to a percentage increase) would easily feel more dull to play, because your abilities would become weaker relative to your gear-progression. For example, suppose Overpower added a +400 damage rather than a +40% damage increase. That means if your MS hits for 2k, 2x OP would add 40% to your damage output. If your MS hits for 3k, 2x OP would only add about 27% to your damage output.

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Bruh you act like you are all knowing and so smart, and they only one to dictate the rules, but in reality you are just annoying

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Dont you have anything else to do than to write 5000 word essays on wow forums? And all that while being wrong

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Dude, keep your arrogance to yourself. If youre consistantly trying to make yourself look superior and more educated than others then i dont wonder why you have so much time to spend on wow forums as i doubt any sane person would like to be in your presence.
“boo hoo ad hominem is used COMMONLY and yet you dont know it boo hoo you should educate yourself and then we can speak at the same intelectual level and maybe you will understand my point boo hoo”

1 Like