How is that in any way controversial for you?
I don’t want Classic to be changed in the name of balance. We have retail for that. I want classic to be a recreation of Vanilla.
But this is not even the discussion in this thread. So don’t know why you bring it up.
But even if you would “fix AV”, my point is that it’s not the map that is the reason alliance lose so much. The evidence is that alliance used to win more than horde with the same map, even in Classic. So it literally can’t be the map.
Because our (horde) strat now is this; Start of game-> cap Shgy.
After Shgy is capped, 20 or as many as 35 players all turn back to clear and recap Ibgy pluss kill any alliance south of SH. I have seen games where our entire team if necessary will turn back to regain ibgy.
This the real reason as to why it is so hard to cap and hold; because the horde goal is not just to win, we spent ages waiting for that game; and in 99% of the time is paired against a comparatively weak alliance side ; so they want to maximize honor with a perfect game.
And not losing anything; a 0 honor game for alliance is a perfect horde game.
Only after choke is established and shgy hard capped will we send a handful of people to do npcs/ balinda/ sh bunker.
Then we push SP with 25-30 and leave 10-15 to hold the choke. (Depending on time we might even purposefully delay capping sp as to make sure that we hit the second time bonus/ not overwhelm choke defenders).
Then why then the Ally strategy of capping IBGY, which is mirror to your example, works only 2% of the time, or 1%?
It’s not the queue times that affect players mentality. People take every advantage they can get.
Short ques, easy wins, best honor. People don’t “lose” on purpose because they have short queues. If they COULD win they sure as hell would.
By using your logic I could argue the exact opposite, that when you sit in a queue for so long your brain starts shutting off, while we on the alliance side are all fired up all the time, ready to fight. See? That doesn’t work in your favour in any way.
Well for one your side is weaker, in a big team fight you dont lose; you get demolished in most av games.
The players who queue av alliance side, are not your rankers.
Its simply too poor honor per hour.
Horde side rankers actually do queue av inbetween prems/ cycle in or out of them. So almost always the horde has a stronger team.
Secondly we generally always have more ranged, with melee being fairly useless in a large scale team fight.
As for turning back to recap shgy, not in many hundred av games have I seen a non premade ally side actually do that in Av. I have seen like the trap from behind shb run back or people run back from SF, but to run from Ibgy to shgy? Never seen that once.
And why is it better for the horde then again?
With a 99% win rate it is more or less guaranteed 10-14k honor + the greater honor mark.
And yet again you have to explain why you win every time.
You have got the answer so many times. Read the answer you get:
Alliance can only win in one way, and that is to win fast. If alliance win slow, it’s not worth it with short queues. So all the motivated alliance players play WSG/AB instead of AV. Horde have long queue and wanna fight. Fast or slow doesn’t matter much. Slow is even fun and gives good honor for horde while a slow game is a nightmare for alliance, even if they win.
This have been said over and over. Why is it so hard to understand?
It’s not the map. It’s the same map as when alliance used to win. So it literally can’t be the map.
And on top of this. Even if it was the map, this is the map Vanilla map and Classic is a recreation of that map.
I think he is trying to refer to how it started being lopsided in the first place, and using that as an aha or gotcha moment lol.
I think It was alliance av premades filtering out the good alliance av players from pugs. Once premades no longer could coordinate av pops; these players nearly all turned exclusively to wsg/ab.
The meta certainly shifted some for horde rankers aswell, definitely after the wsg honor boost. But Av remained an option, and if anything saw an increase in horde rankers once the premades was gone (bar russians ofc).
So the quality of horde players in av became vastly better on average, and has remained like that ever since.
Exactly! I have made this argument many times myself. The AV premades hurt alliance puggers way more than it hurt the horde. And when the preamdes was gone, so was all the good motivated alliance in AV. And now alliance are stuck in this loop thing. And it’s not the map that is the reason.
Most horde players are backpedalers in AV. As are the Alliance… It’s not the players, it’s the map.
It’s just that they have got it so much easier due to the map. The one tactic that can’t go wrong, works all the time.
Now I rest my case. Any horde who favours balance can join the conversation.
What case? it’s not the map.
It’s the same map as when alliance used to win in Classic. The first week, pug vs pug, alliance dominated. Same map.
Vanilla retail, alliance dominated, same map.
Private servers, both sides very even, same map.
It’s not the map.
The map is by design uneven. It’s fair and unfair for different things on different locations. But as a whole, it’s very well balanced.
It’s not the map.
And even if it where the map, wouldn’t matter, because the map is a recreation of the map from Vanilla. With the exception of the closed backdoor to Alliance (and horde) base.
If you want to make AV better balanced, find a way to make more alliance queue to AV with better rewards from long games. Stuff like that.
Sure it’s not the map. Can’t be.
It literally can’t be the map because it’s the same map as when Alliance used to win more than Horde in Classic, in retail and private servers. It’s the same map. It’s not the map. Because it’s the same map. The only thing that have changed in classic is player behavior based on queue time/system and rewards.
Sounds like I’m trying to take away your favourite toy. And to be fair, I can understand that. Winning is fun!
Well that’s because your are ignorant. I don’t play AV right now\ and haven’t’ played AV since I got exacted on my Alliance paladin and Horde Shaman.
Winning can get boring after awhile. Especially when only facing the same bad opposition, using the same failing tactics every game.
Then why do you insist on having an absolutely imbalanced map in the game?
First of all. It’s not imbalanced. Not in the way you think anyway.
Secondly, Classic is a recreation of Vanilla.
The map is a recreation of the map from Vanilla. Even if it was imbalanced, and it’s not, it wouldn’t matter, as it’s a recreation of Vanilla.
It’s the same map as when Alliance used to win. The reason behind the alliance losses today is not due to the map. It’s due to the queue system and reward system and player behavior. This has been explained to you many times now, in great detail.
If it’s the recreation of vanilla which you speak of, why are there hundreds of changes in the game? That is just ‘Bull’… 