Hi
After having tried 3 runs on M+ (6-7) level. With someone leaving before or at the first boss every time I would like to suggest that a deserter debuff would apply for all searchable content.
There could be a voting system implemented so that if all 5 agree on that this key is not possible and call it, then the debuff will not happen. But having people leaving after 5 minutes is absolutely catastrophic for us that want to play and get a few tokens.
And now I tried a 4th time. Having the healer leave just when timer went past 0 on the last boss. This must be fixed! PUGing M+ is completely hopeless now.
OK. You want this then right ? Think about the consequences of what you want. Because you wont acheive what you want by punishing people.
Think first WHY people leave. And address that. It acheives better results.
Seems like you missed the point. This is when people leave themselves because of whatever reason. This has nothing to do with being removed. Never actually seen anyone being removed in M+ since that would still make the dungeon unplayable.
You miss the point.
If I wanted to leave an M+ run, but I knew I would get a deserter buff I would just AFK in the door until you guys left, or finished the dungeon for me.
That is why there is a āremove from partyā button in quewable content. Because that is what people used to do. And now you got this drama.
The point is that deserter debuff opens up a massive can of worms that you dont realize exists. And the good thing about it is that we have real examples of what happens if you go through āpunishing peopleā as a game policy. Which are all the posts I put above.
And if you dont beleive me, you can go look at the archives and find posts from WotlK when quewable dungeons first appeared. And witness the drama.
Post like yours there were 1000s. And eventually you got your deserter debuff. And now, here we are. With inocent people being punished for no reason at all.
So as I said on my original post, if leavers is something you think should be addressed then do it the proper way:
And then fix that. You dont want a deserter buff.
Ok, so WoW has been around for 20 years and no one has fixed the why people are leaving. So conclusion, part of the community are idiots and are toxic to others.
Just count the completion rate of a person leaving mid run and let people vote for if the leaver is bad for the group.
Low completion rate (if you are first to leave) and low vote score will make it harder for you to get invited to groups.
Right. So instead of trashing anyone that might have a different view in the game how about you stop and think a bit. Let me give you an example :
You and 3 others join a key to get gear (for example). And you PuG 1 guy that wants to time the key for RIO. Both are 100% legit reasons to join a key. Nobody is being toxic or idiotic.
And now you wipe twice on a boss and 100% guaranteed you wont time it. What does that 1 person do? Stay or leave? Hold that thought for a seccond.
Because I want you to imagine the inverse case. A party of 4 that wants to time a key invites you that is there for gear. And you wipe twice in a boss.
And 4 people leave the key and leave you there alone.
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Now. Back to the example you held on for a moment. Usually, if you dont talk to people, dont engage people in the team, dont talk people into CARING about the teamā¦ 99% of the times that guy will leave the key.
If you talk to people, engage them, befriend them (even for 1 dungeon), 99% of people will stay. Because even though you wiped. Even though that individual wont get what he came to get, he is STILL having fun. So he will stay.
An extra benefit is that he will also stay in the next keys you do. Or even, become a friend in your friends list and he will stay for multiple keys for years even.
THERE. I fixed it.
And that is why in 20 years Blizzard has not fixed the problem. Because its not up to blizzard to fix it. Its up to YOUā¦
And the issue has been that for 20 years people simply havent realized yet that behind the toon there is a person. Not an NPC, not a Jerk, or a ātoxicā dude like you claim. There is only people with different goals and expectations to yours.
The secret is finding a compromise to find a common goal. Not just to join a key and āassume thingsā.
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And the worst thing about all this is that its not rocket science. Its 100% the same thing you do in your day to day life. In your job, at a party or bar, with your SO, with your kids or at school. Its the defenition of our civilization.
So why wont you do it in WoW? And why does it surprise so many people?
Either way I gave you the solution. I tried it, works. And others in this forum can vouch that it works for them as well.
Itās good that you think so. It does not happen on lower keys. That why I have switched to only do invites from the community on discord. Because there you can build the trust and understanding that you are talking about.
It does.
I invite people from my friends list. Where do you think those people ended up in my list to begin with?
You just havent tried.
Thatās what we are both saying. you cannot play with random people anymore. you have to have them on disc or friends list. Those are not the problem. To increase the player base beyond the ones with discord and a large friend list. We need to fix the problem with toxicity.
No. That is what you are saying. It is not what I am saying.
Let me put it this way. Why do you have more success with RANDOM unknown people you invite from a Discord Community?
Because they are in Discord. You talk with them. You say hello. You ask them if they feel like a run or notā¦ ectā¦
THAT is why you have more success with Discord Communities. Because there is apersonal you-them relationship built into it by default.
And that is what people DONT do in a random PuG run with the /party. They dont build that you-them relationship in the /party chat, and hence, dont get the same results. And its not surprising !
But if you DO, then you acheive the same results you do with the Discord Communities. THAT is what I am saying.
As for people in the friends list. ALL of them were random PuG players. That is how I met them for the first time. But we connected and decided (mutually) to continue talking and playing with eachother. WHY ?
Because we built a you-them connection in /party in that first PuG run where we met. That is why.
This is too easy. If they key was advertised as āCompleteā then if the PUG leaves, they should be punished.
If it was advertised as āIn Timeā, then the PUG can leave on first wipe.
Same situation with opposite intentions.
And you can get away with murder 87% of time, completely up to chance, trust me.
Thatās Chinese cookie wisdom for ya. āTake all things in moderation. Even WoW.ā
You wrote two whole paragraphs without saying anything.
This is the exact truth. Some people do not understand that the 4 other avatars they see in their group are played by humans, they think itās badly programmed AI and that they can be toxic towards because there are no reprecussions.
Iāll go on a tangent and rant here, but the crushingly vast majority of players both do not bother to properly fill in the details of their key and purpose when opening it up in the Group Finder and/or they do not bother to read the details that other players have filled in already. Just this season I had people go to a wrong dungeon because they didnāt check the title correctly, and similarly I had people advertise a wrong dungeon than their keystone; one even went to the length of berating us for being too stubborn and kicked us out when he was the one doing the wrong advertisement. Just this season I had people enter a Learning/Completion (thatās how I advertise my keys) and leave after the first wipe wipe while ranting about wasting their time (this happened in a +3 or +4 Stonevault). Just this season I opened a key for Necrotic Wake again as Learning/Completion, I told the tank to not pull everything in the first room but do it in 3 or 4 pulls because I do not have the skill to outheal the damage, he said āOkā and proceeded to pull everything, wipe, complain about lack of interrupts and leave the group.
But even if we implemented that, people would just open all their keys as Completion to keep everyone else hostage. But theyād still act as if the keyās target is to time it. Proven false
Not really sure what you mean by this. If a 4 ppl pre-made advertises as Completion, but they start leaving after first wipe, itās them who would get punished.
Good point, I didnāt think of it like that. I didnāt consider that the key opener could also be punished under his own choice. For some reason I thought it would allow griefing by holding hostage some player in a 2-hour run.
-=EDIT=-
Iāll add to your suggestion that getting kicked should not add a penalty. I want to catch the case where someone advertises as āCompletionā and then kicks a pugged player just for the lulz.
Iād never leave a key if it was failing, but you can imagine that if you enter a key level at +10, and you need to explain a tactic to people (which I have) there comes a momentā¦and then itā s not toxic leaver, but people who want to get a high key done without doing the basic work for it.