All anti-RDF arguments are outdated

WoW Classic Wrath of the Lich King Classic Discussion
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Prove me i am wrong :

  1. The RDF killed the social: In 2010 maybe, in 2022 not. Wotlk private servers that disabled RDF proved it, TBC too, the “You think you do but you don’t” has never been so true.

  2. The RDF has killed the social bis: The RDF tool allows to empty the channels in order to let us speak freely on it, today the channel is spammed with announcements and if we have the misfortune to speak for fun we are insulted or ignored

  3. RDF is a tool, therefore not RP: The BG tag when slacking in front of an NPC or via the tool has never bothered anyone and it dates from Vanilla

  4. With the RDF people socialize less to group: Spammer “LF last tank for” with a reply in pm “Hi +1”, is not sociable. In addition, the Salute in question is still retrieved via the RDF once TP in the dungeon and/or grouped automatically, it’s just politeness

  5. With RDF people no longer talk in dungeons: RDF does not impact a person’s willingness to talk in dungeons, and this has been proven once again on Wotlk who disabled RDF. What makes players socialize in the dungeon is the combination of discovery + difficulty

  6. The cross-server RDF has killed the social: True, and we can very well not activate this feature, however we are already drowned in the mass since the servers are 2 to 3x more populated than at the time , in other words this defect is already implemented natively. In addition, the BGs are cross-server since Vanilla, and it has never bothered anyone

  7. With RDF I can’t group manually: False, you can make an announcement in the channel, group them and tag. Or go there on foot if you wish, it’s a principle called the Walk-in

  8. With the RDF I can’t make friends and keep them in contact: False, nothing prevents it, however there is no reason for others to keep in touch while the dungeon is clean in 15min chrono

  9. The RDF which allows TP in the dungeon is bad: True when you discover the game, False when you have played 10 years of play. The Wotlk private servers which have disabled the RDF have proven it, 5min of auto fly in afk Alt+Tab Google

  10. The RDF allows abuse of kicks: False, there is a 15min cooldown before the first kick, in other words the dungeon is already clean at this time. While a manual group gives full power to the lead and can kick at the slightest whim (lack of dps, no cc, not enough stuff, too much of the same type of stuff to need etc.) Worse yet, a person can leave the group without ANY penalty, once they get the loot they want right in the middle of the dungeon, imagine that if it’s a dps that tag tank to make it faster, roll dps, gain the loot and quit, with the RDF the person gets the “deserter” for 30min.

  11. RDF is not Classic: Indeed, that’s why Classic ERA exists, a server that has been neglected by its own fan base apparently “the best version of WoW”

  12. If you want RDF, go to Retail: If you don’t want RDF, go back to Classic ERA, the server you abandoned and which was nevertheless el famoso “the best version of WoW”. The RDF is part of Wotlk.

  13. It’s Classic not retail: Wrong, it’s Wotlk, just stop.

  14. Players will prefer soloQ RDF to get the buff 15% : Ok just remove the buff then.

  15. RDF should be implemented with ICC only : Wrong, RDF was a part of 40-45% of the total Wotlk life, and RDF is not a dg/raid content, it’s just a tool so as the game is in 3.3.5 it has to be in day one, exactly as the fly is 150%, 1.5sc casting, double spec, no CD every 3 days to craft an Titan Bar and 200 others things that we can list.
    For more exemplaination read that =>

Yes and we did not have these things until ICC :melting_face:

  • Summoning Stones: To use any Summoning stone, a character must be at least level 15. There is no maximum level to use these meeting stones.
  • Health and Mana Regeneration: These regeneration rates have been increased up to 200% for low level characters. As the character level increases, regeneration rates gradually decrease, until returning to normal rates at level 15.
  • Troll and Orc shaman totems now have their own unique appearance.
  • Nerfed Oculus
  • The distance at which these health bars are visible to players has been increased by 40 yards. (oh wait, isn’t already enabled on TBC ? :slight_smile: )
  • The speed of improving the Norfendre reputations has been increased by approximately 30%.

Yes and we did not have these things until ToC :melting_face:

  • Cast duration to summon any ground mount is now 1.5 seconds, down from 3 seconds.
  • The skill Apprentice Rider (75) can now be learned at level 20 for 4 gold. A letter will be sent to characters reaching level 20 to direct them to the riding master.
    Companion Rider skill (150) can now be learned at level 40 for 50 gold. A letter will be sent to characters reaching level 40 to send them again to the riding master.
    The Expert Rider skill (225) can now be learned at level 60 for 600 gold from Honor Hold or Thrallmar masters. Faction discounts are now applied (Honour Hold for the Alliance, Thrallmar for the Horde). Flight speed at this skill level increased to 150% of run speed from 60%.
    Artisan Rider Skill (300): Faction discounts are now applied (Honor Hold or Valor Expedition for the Alliance, Thrallmar or Warsong Offensive for the Horde).
    To continue harmonizing the number of mounts available for purchase for each race, a new 60% speed ground mount has been added for night elves, and a new 100% speed ground mount has been added for Forsaken.
  • Object comparisons: by pressing the Shift key. while hovering over an item with the mouse now displays the stat differences from the currently equipped item in the corresponding slot.
  • Portals have been added to Orgrimmar and Stormwind to lead players to the Stairs of Destiny at the Dark Portal.
  • A new zeppelin dock has been added to Thunder Bluffs to allow Horde players easier travel to and from Orgrimmar.
  • The local mail department got tired of walking so far each day to collect mail and decided to install a large number of new mailboxes in Stormwind, Undercity, Darnassus and Orgrimmar.
  • All stackable potions are now stackable by 20.

Yes and we did not have these things until Ulduar :melting_face:

  • All ground mounts can now swim without unhorsing their rider. Flying mounts still cannot swim and dismount their rider when entering water.
  • DOUBLE SPEC
  • Applying a glyph no longer requires being near a Lexicon of Power. The same rules apply for changing glyphs
  • Players no longer need to complete the Nat Pagle, Extreme Angler quest to become Artisan Anglers. The quest rewards you with a special premium fishing rod. Players who have already completed this quest can visit Nat Pagle in Dustwallow Marsh to receive this new fishing rod.

RDF is not a RAID or a DUNGEON, it’s a mecanic/parameter like all i listed before.

You just want a CUSTOM WOTLK, you don’t like this game, go to Classic ERA and stop trying to ruin our game.

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Private servers are not cross server thats why it works on them.

If your server have a world chat set up its usually fairly ok if you and others keep up reporting people who are selling boosts outside of trade chat that is.

Well PvP and PvE usually attracts diffrent crowds im more than happy letting the people who do something I dont care complain if they want to complain about something that dont affect me. Ergo if the pvp players dont care about their tool not being geared towards social interactions I wont fight that battle for them.

You have never asked anyone in your guild if they can come and tank or heal? Never had anyone in your group ask if anyone have anyone in their guild that could come? Because thats what you do without the RDF you ask people you know or others ask people they know and from that comes social interactions, not big ones but some sort of interaction never the less.

If you will never see a person ever again most likely there is no reason to talk to them, if you see the same healer by chance even in like 3 runs you might just start to have some small talk while you wait for a tank seeing as you have played with them a few times.

Then its not the RDF any more. Dont play on a mega server if you actually value community and and around half the people playing right now acording to ironforge pro in the eu are playing on servers that are under 7.5k so non mega servers for sure.

No one have ever said that you cant other than when they are using hyperbole to make a point. But there will be less people willing to join those groups because people are lazy.

No one have said this, what people have said that there is no way to party up with that healer from another server, which could also be false with modern tech but why would you party up with that healer again if you can just press a button and then get a new healer.

Dont know what point you are even trying to make. And private servers are a non sequitur seeing as we are not playing on those.

No penalty other than the risk of people avoiding them or if they ninja item they might even get other consequences since there are communications between guilds at lest on the non mega servers.

Classic is not just classic era. Classic era is dead because nothing will ever happen there not because people didnt enjoy it, I would suggest that most people had their fix of MC-Naxx for a few years seeing as most people dont just replay the same expansions over and over again on private servers. Bringing in that the Era servers are dead are once again a non sequitur.

Thats kind of like saying that ICC should be in from day one seeing as it was a part of Wrath it even came out at the same time as the dungeon finder. And once again era is a non sequitur.

It is Wrath Classic, and the devs have clearly said that they want to try something different this time around, Classic is not the name of Era but of a new product line so you are wrong it is classic, Wotlk happened back then and you wont ever get that exact version back

Edit: I have now taken and answered each of your points, and while it might not have “proven you wrong” seeing as you were telling your opinions and using private servers as your reference as how good it works, I might at least have given you something to consider.

Edit 2: Ofc all of my points are based on my opinions as well.

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Imagine if RFD always was a part of WoW, since the earliest days. Would be fun to see if “no one” was social back then.

My few cents:

  1. If they add RFD I will still prioritize grouping up with guildies/friends.

  2. RFD can be fantastic for people who wants to spam level an alt.

  3. You can still look for people in chat with RFD in the game, therefore you are not forced to use it. Comparable to a premade BG and a random queue in a sense.

  4. With RFD or not, I’ll still play wotlk and end my journey come Catac.

Have a lovely day.

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Final Fantasy has automated parties for nearly every instanced content under the sun, raids included, and their players don’t seem slightly bothered by it.

They however don’t need to spam any channel with adds to look for more people when they don’t use the automated system. They are truly savage creatures that much be shunned.

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No, I believe the burden of proof rests on the one making the claim and wanting to implement the change. Still waiting for the devs to show what research they used to claim ‘the community’ wants this or what this will accomplish.

Never give into their mind games and think otherwise. It’s not up to you to be proven wrong, it’s up to those who want to change wotlk to prove they’re right.

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Also works on a serv with 10k players which is the same of 10 years before with cross-servs.

Of course, and i do.

So, all PvP players was always arcade players ? Why PvE players couldn’t being arcade players also ?

I already asked for it on Classic, and it proved me that it’s not because you have a guild that players are playing for you. If they don’t want to do dungeon then they just don’t respond. Also, i know nobody now on this specific game and even i knew some peoples, it’s the same thing, it’s not because they know me that they will accept to do the specific dungeon which i’m asking for, because other players are not playing and connected for me.

It’s purely theoretical, in practice I’m just going to be silent because I won’t have anything specific to say. It’s happened to me before or to other players, so i know what is in the real practice and also TBC proved me that.

I don’t play on a mega-server, there is 6k players with 60-40% balance, which is already 2 cross-serv comapred to before.

I already read it from anti-RDF.

Again, i already read it from anti-RDF, many times, so, i just argumented about exactly what they said.

I mean “The RDF which allows summon in and out is bad and not RP”. I’ll edit my first post.

Not enough to counter argument that.

Weird, because i read many times that players was tired about bad private servers and they wanted a Classic for ever.

Ok so Blizzard should put

  • Mount cast 3sc
  • Disable the fact that we can swim we our mount
  • Disable the double spec
  • Make the fact that we need to being near from Power Lexical to put a Glyph
  • Make the lvl requiered to learn the mounts same as TBC
  • Fly mount 60% instead 150%
  • Delete all graveyard that was added on Azeroth

And can continue if you want, but the list will be long.

Ok so let Classic players who let ERA empty transform our Wotlk in Wotlk Vanilla like.
Good news for someone like me who played Wotlk over 12 years.

I appreciate your effort but yes i’m sorry but you not proved me that i’m wrong. Yes my experience is based on private server, because i played 12 years on Wotlk, on many diferente servers, with RDF, no RDF, Mythic dg, and also played on Classic and TBC. And a player who just played on Vanilla/TBC/Wotlk and stopped on it cannot see what i saw during this 12 years evolution.

I don’t want to sound pretentious but I know the “practice” and all the “theories” that I have read are currently wrong, and all the “practices” that I have read are also wrong because obsolete today and yet another both Private Servers and Classic/TBC proved it.

True, but as Blizzard want to hear the ultra minor community while they don’t realize they’re wrong and deluded, we have to explain exactly argument per argument why they are wrong and make this legend “RDF killed social” die.

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But then you might see the person again, im not saying it wouldnt work, it most likely
would but it would lose some parts that for some of us feel rather important.

Well im not saying exactly that but fairly close to it, PvP is more of a arcade type of game mode. While PvE is a more grindy slower type of game mode, you cant just do every raid multiple times in a week with the same char for example while you can do as many BGs and Arena matches as you want to.

While I know that sometimes its hard to get groups for less popular dungeons my suggestion would be to be the one that offers to help others and then you will also get help when you ask for it. Thats how I have dealt with it and that means for me getting a group for something not popular is not that hard at all, might take a little while but I will get a group together (might help that im a tank as well).

Thats up to you that you dont do any small talk while looking for the last person if there are people you have been playing with before. But having RDF would cut down on such interactions for sure.

Tried to look up the pop cap that blizzard had in wrath and I couldnt find it, all I could find was that in vanilla it was somewhere between 2.5-3 according to estimations (not counting in faulty memories of a game designer 15 years later could have been both bigger and smaller than he remembered it to be but it was somewhere around those numbers according to him as well). I also play on a server with similar numbers and it would for sure work for the higher level dungeons if it was just on each server with the populations we have now but it wouldnt work for what a lot of people say they want it for and that is to level their alts through dungeons.

I think they were hyperbolic like I said.

well if they say that then they dont know what they are talking about.

Now that I understand what you meant I can respond, I think mostly just people on RP servers would care about that, maybe not only but mostly.

But it is a risk you run if you are behaving badly without RDF if you just leave after the boss you were interested in dies you get a penalty of not being able to queue for half a hour and thats not really much of a penalty if you for example already planed to log out for the night after that run.

Some people wanted that for sure, but clearly that was not what most people wanted seeing as most went to TBC.

For me those are not counter arguments seeing as I would love to play through the original patch progression.

Well the thing is that its no players decision at all how the game will be, the devs have made up their mind and no matter how much people argue this is something I dont think they will go back on in the first place, no matter how much I personally want a RDF to actually come in but not at launch of Wrath atleast one phase (preferable two) without it for some more social interactions on my part while the dungeons are at most active and the RDF is the least needed would make me happy after that it can come.

So as you see im a bit of a devils advocate here not truly in the anti or pro camp but in the would like it to come but just a bit later camp.

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Because it’s a good design.
My FF14 dungeons tend to be more social than people spamming LFG in the channels.

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Wotlk dungeons are arcade because of their design, easy, low damage, low HP, poor mecanics or they don’t get the time to used it.
I already played Mythic dg on a Wotlk without RDF, and guess what, the sociability started in the dungeon and only in the dungeon, why ? Because it was our first time on it, exploring, discovering mecanics and make new strats. Make a groupe manually was only “LF Rsham for Magister Mythic” => “Hi +1” => “Sumon please ?”

Hm, if you think players will force themself to do what they don’t want to do… You are lucky are you are dreaming. I’ll don’t say that can never happens, but it’s not common. Players just want to do what they need.

So you want to force me or other players to talk with a last while he’s looking for a last ? Forcing players is a bad idea. I can’t believe you want to force me to talk to someone while i have nothing to say, jesus…

As i read them, they are just stubborn, come to say what they don’t like and leave as soon as they come.

As 99% of Anti-RDF.

I don’t think so on my part because there is no RP servers in my language.

Agree, but it’s better than no getting RDF and 0 absolute restriction.

Yes but patch progression =/= raid content progression.
If you want a real patch progression (i’d love that), you have to play will old mecanics, QoL like i listed before (0.5% of all of them), and old talents/spells.

I don’t sure this is not players decision as Devs want to content the minority (and the wrong minority), the Classic players and not the real Wotlk players.

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And people are not social in BGs. If it goes well it’s all sunshine and happiness with the “gg” and “ez” comments. If it goes bad then people start throwing blame around.

If one wanted to have a social experience in pvp one had to look elsewhere than battlegrounds and arenas. On my server the sewers in Dalaran was the duelling area. If you wanted to do some duels you went there, and it was a pretty social space too.

World pvp was another area where you could experience social gameplay. Flying had a very negative impact on world pvp so it was hard to come by in WLK, and in Cataclysm the main area for world pvp was Tol Barad Peninsula and the Firelands zone. Because you could not fly there, and people had reason to go there (daily grind). It was the perfect place to ambush the other faction and skirmishes were frequent and they sometimes escalated into bigger fights. The server forums were quite alive back then as well. In fact, the social nature of World PvP was the reward of the experience as you did not gain any meaningful honour by stirring things up in the world.

If you were to remove the cross-server aspect of Battlegrounds they would become much more social spaces. We have no evidence of this in World of Warcraft, but there is evidence from Star Wars: The Old Republic. That game never opened up cross-server pvp. And playing pvp in that game was reminiscent of running dungeons in vanilla/TBC – because you would notice people and people would notice you and you’d team up after matches.

Larger player-created PvP events were not uncommon, either. There was a FFA pvp zone where players would host competitions, and various guilds pitched in in-game money as prizes to the winners. When was the last time you saw this type of investment from a community in World of Warcraft?

The same argument for the Dungeon Finder goes for PvP as well and by invoking it you just prove the anti-RDF’s point.

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Crossrealm

Crossrealm is definitely a debatable aspect and does have negative points like its harder to add players from other realms to your friend list and to play with them again and maybe language issues, if someone cannot speak English, but is mixed with other languages anyway. Additionally the social liability is reduced if players are less likely to meet, just as it is right now on mega servers.
Most servers have a lack of low level players looking for dungeons. On small pop servers even on max level players have troubles finding groups for their desired content outside of peak hours. This was the reason crossrealm was introduced in the first place, so players, regardless of their server population, could play dungeons with other players at any time, instead of doing solo content.
One might argue that they are unable to have a conversation with players from other realms, but for what reason are players chatting and not chatting to begin with? The best thing I can imagine is they feel that social interactions are an investment that are not worth on players they might never meet again. If thats the case, it at least makes sense to ask for a more socially binding game, since its such a burden for them to chat with strangers.

Teleport to dungeon

The teleport to the dungeon is not a big change, because once the meeting stones were introduced in vanilla, only 2 players were traveling and 3 players got a similar port as RDF one anyway. With the flying mount/riding skill buff in 3.2.0 (slow one 150% movement speed) the 2 porting players could afk fly to their destination even more effortlessly.
Especially for low level dungeons, not having a teleport makes most instances not worth the travel. Wotlk leveling is much faster paced compared to vanilla leveling. If players start to have heirlooms, they have even less reason to go to dungeons for items they might use for 1-2 levels. The time to find a group and traveling to the dungeon and back is so long compared to actually running the dungeon (not all flight paths, slow or no mount at all), that most leveling players choose to simply level with only a few dungeons that are “on the way”, like one time ramparts, if any.
The teleport was nothing new either. Since patch 3.1 players were able to queue for battlegrounds from any location. Leaving a battleground returned them to the location from which they entered. I cannot remember anyone thinking this was a bad change, especially then it came to leveling players.
When it comes to the point of exploration, releasing the tool in patch 3.1-3.3 for max level chars would be reasonable, too.

Social interaction difference between RDF and LFG-tool

If someone looks for a group, he/she doesnt want and will not smalltalk with anyone, who just applied for the group. Especially on mega servers, if a group looks for a dps, he will get dozens of “inv [class] [gear]” whispers within a minute. Its impossible to have a meaningful/social conversation with any of these players.
With the new LFG-tool, if a player signs up for a dungeon, he doesnt even need to type “inv” to dozens of players anymore, he simply receives an invite. Besides the player still needing a teleport, the experience is the very same as with RDF, except that players with bad gear/spec are less likely to get invites because group leaders can filter them out. This is called gatekeeping and arguably not a good thing.
The only aspect that makes the manual group searching potentially more social compared to RDF is that its such a time sink where every other group member before the last one is just in a state of waiting, that players are more likely to type something.
We are talking about a “social game design” that is trying to make players artificially wait for unnecessary reasons to encourage them to chat out of boredom while waiting for the group to fill.

Premade groups with RDF

Premade groups will still exist for obvious reasons:

  • faster invites, especially as DPS
  • faster/smoother runs (able to choose gear level, class composition)
  • less risk of having a ninja or someone who might leave
  • able to reserve items
    There is no real downside for players using premade groups. The RDF is designed for players who have problems finding groups in a reasonable amount of time, usually because of their gear/class/spec. These players wont get a manual invite anyway, so the amount of well geared players looking for groups does not decrease as much as some might expect, since playing premade still provides a much better experience.

Vanilla design vs wotlk design

Wotlk dungeons are designed to have less trash, to be shorter compared to vanilla dungeons. Every class has a form a aoe in wotlk. Besides the daily heroic dungeon reward, heroic dungeons were designed for players to gear up, learn their class and become raid ready. After a few months, after most players have epic gear, dungeons will be rushed without much downtime and not much time to chat to begin with. Since dungeons were intended to be spammed and finished in much less time compared to before, the old fashioned group building process became outdated and were one of reasons RDF was introduced.
Putting the community and playerbase aside, wotlk design is very different from the vanilla design to the very core, in nearly every aspect. Changing only one superficial feature will not give wotlk a vanilla feeling, only a wotlk that feels its missing something.

Wanted inconveniences to encourage players to socialize

This is the argument against RDF I have heard the most in the last weeks:

Without RDF players, who have issues finding groups, are more likely to look for guilds that give them a chance to do dungeons with. Since they are now part of a guild, they are part of a social group and create strong bonds, that they would otherwise not have, if RDF existed.
No RDF and a LFG-tool that encourages gatekeeping are wanted elements, that force these players to either join guilds or stop playing/progressing out of frustration. If they quit, because they cannot find dungeon groups in time, it is a good thing, because these players are no real MMORPG players and not social enough, so they should not play the game to begin with.

I myself think this is complete toxic thinking. Players are able reach max level completely solo, no guild required. Why should they suddenly be forced to join a guild? Dungeons are entry level gearing content, to get raid ready. Guilds were are usually created by players for raids. In raids they use voice and talk to each other, socialize, but that is rarely the case for dungeons. Many guilds, who look for recruits prefer to invite raid ready players over green geared player too.
There is no reason to force players to become social for dungeons, when the same kind of encouragement comes from raids, where the real social interaction (voice, coordination) starts. Even from a raid guilds perspective, its better to have applicants to be raid ready, than only have players applying in green gear. It doesnt change the willingness of players to join guilds long term and it doesnt hurt their social bounds, once they joined the guild to raid.

Conclusion

Crossrealm should be addressed and if its not excluded, players from one realm should be prioritized in the matching process.
Elements like the daily heroic lockout should be kept until patch 3.3.
The “new” LFG-tool is only good for gatekeeping, but doesnt add anything to an improved social experience, other than creating an artificial waiting time, that players who are bored might use to chat. Other than that the experience is like RDF, just less convenient. Players who prefer premade groups the old fashioned way will keep doing so, without problems.
Having RDF does not encourage more players to join guilds in the long run, since raids are already doing it.
Wotlk isnt and cannot be vanilla, except if everything that changes in wotlk is reverted. Since that wont happen, the is no indication that the removal of RDF will have a noticeable impact on the perception of wotlk and the social interactions overall.

Not adding RDF will not make the game feel like vanilla, just a lacking wotlk.

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But you do have cross faction, which has the exact same effect. Actually even more, because in WotLK Classic you would be able to keep in touch with the player by exchanging battle tags. On a pserver there are no battle tags so ingame you can’t stay in touch with the player from the other faction, that you met in RDF.

So how about you check the facts before you jump to conclusions?

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On some of them you have cross faction on others you dont, but a thing that is as good as always true is that there is no cross server, the once that have cross faction usually have lower numbers than what we have on medium pop servers even in classic.
But how about you actually read what people write before picking out one sentence and look stupid seeing as I said a bunch of times that private servers are not what we are talking about anyways so they do not matter to the discussion. Oh wait I forgot you are the troll that keep on complaining on the forums about a game that they have canceled their sub for. I have dealt enough with you good night.

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Ok, you can either agument about server community, where cross faction is equally disconnected from the players you play with on your server, as cross server players. Or you can argument player numbers, and then megaservers, which already exist, will be equal to 2 or 3 connected low or medium populated servers.
No matter how you put it, you don’t have a point.

Ok, so just because you don’t like the argument, that proves you wrong, you just dismiss it.
We might not be talking about pservers here, but WotLK pservers is the closest comparison we have to WotLK Classic at the moment. So they do count.
What doesn’t count are 12 year old hazy memories of original WotLK and still people bring it up all the time to argue against the RDF. I haven’t seen you dismiss those yet.
So double standards again?

No I am the player that calls out your double standards and posts here on the forum hoping, to get Blizzard to realise their decision was wrong. Because I love WotLK and I really want to play the game and pay Blizzard for it. I just won’t pay for a bad game experience.
And I hope you were just referring to my toon when you called me a troll. Because otherwise it would be very ironic. You already stated, that you aren’t on the board to have a discussion, but only to propagate your opinion. So you aren’t really in a position to call somebody a troll.

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My main disagreement with you about the cross faction thing is that if they have such a small community that they need it then the people can still maintain a community even if they cant always talk with each other.

Quote mining is seen as a really really bad thing to do, there was more than that the referenced servers are not what we are talking about so what works on them will not necessarily be what works on classic servers and even if it would work equally well there is no one that really knows what blizzards plan for the future of classic is after wrath now with the removal of RDF. Well my memories from original WotLK is not something I bring up that much. Emphasis on I there. And like I have said in this thread I just used my own opinions those are not necessarily based on my memories but on thing that I have experienced since we had wrath the last time around. No double standards if you read what I argue at all. And because I enjoy doing it I will call out another committed fallacy in this thread. Strawman

I was talking about your character but I was also referring to you saying that you have canceled your sub and not played since blizzard took away the toy that shouldnt even have been there before basically the end of the classic expansion because no way that ICC would be the content for another 10 months with how quickly they are rushing through classic.

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Here’s a lesson in “double standards”. Lead your argument by saying this:

Now you’ve taken a stance. You shouldn’t dismiss things just because they prove you wrong. Then go on and share your argument that the other party argued against:

See? You are making a valid point. A strong point! No one in their right mind should argue against that. Once you’ve established your view you take the opponent’s argument:

… and dismiss it. Even though, in this case, it wasn’t even the opponent’s argument.

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This here is the lamest argument anyone can ever make.

With this said why bother to do anything at all? May as well just have us create chars fully geared and spawn right outside the raids. I mean it’s a 15 year old game right?

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18

All of your OP is nothing but your opinion, I saw very few facts there and none of those you mention have any bearing on your argument.

WoW is a role playing game and the introduction of RDF was something that removed a small part of the role playing aspect of the game.

It seems it was part of a campaign by the developers to remove as many RP components of the game as they could and over the years they’ve slowly chipped away at this aspect (even trying to remove the RP servers all together in Classic) and steering the game away from it’s roots.

As for the social decline, funny how that was really noticable just after the introduction of RDF. Coincidence ? I think not.

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19

Even that won’t appease these pro RDF so called ‘veteran’ players.

They’re part of he same gang that want account wide everything.

So why not just stop all these complaints and requests and make every thing server wide. Rep, level, gold, achievements, gear. I mean its a game that’s nearly 2 decades old so we should all be able to make a toon that has everything anyone else has and then we can boast to our friends how well we’ve done and how we’ve achieved this totally OP char with max achievement points and reps with a zillion gold and BiS gear by making a few mouse clicks.

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Can you explain the influence of RDF on the role playing aspect of the game and how it is more impactful than other changes? Its my first time Im hearing the argument that RDF hurts the RPG aspect specifically and to that degree, that RDF and only RDF has to be removed, while all other changes arent as impactful.
It wouldnt make sense it was part of Blizzards “campaign to remove RP servers”, because then it would make more sense if they introduced RDF even earlier, not saying they dont want to add it at all.

I think this is an appropriate response in your book:

Unrealistic assumption

Players are asking for an original experience by adding an original feature, that doesnt change the way of progression or gameplay, but only an additional option to form groups, because the current group forming isnt the best experience.

Instead of stating anything related to the topic, you start an argument by assuming far fetched things, and invent a hyperbolic story about something that people do not even want and think that proves a point.
This is why people are unable to take you seriously. No facts, just opinions, hazy memories and made up stories.

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